LY200 - too loud or blow up again, taking bets!

[Raptor6767]

Check the timing.

 

[Yiannis197]

I'm quite confident on your setup. If the timing is out (very easy to miss) the losses would be big. If it produces the same after Paul works its magic I'm gonna be very disappointed but I highly doubt it...

 

[sokol]

This is the dyno run from my friends clio 197 that also had 403 cams on stock engine with stock timing.
This cams are a bit strange.They really sound like stock on idle.I think you will have to play with timing to get the best from this cams.
Maybe you should consider R3 cams...we know this cams work as Renaul Sport actualy put some development in, not like cat cams (computer design)

 

[TB Rich]

Gutting! Do you think theres an underlying issue somewhere?

There must be...

I know most of your spec is reliability over Hp, but still...

The engine will be tight still, but as you've said: timing, filter ect need looking at

Check the timing.

I'm quite confident on your setup. If the timing is out (very easy to miss) the losses would be big. If it produces the same after Paul works its magic I'm gonna be very disappointed but I highly doubt it...

Gutting, yes and no, if it was 215bhp/ish I'd be gutted, this is so far short of where it should be, it's frankly nothing short of comical! I'm not really going to voice my opinions on how it was assumed 205bhp is an acceptable figure on those cams/pistons and the car to leave like it. However I am receiving good service and we are speaking to catcams about this.

I've literally priced up reverting back to stock and selling off the fancy bits in component form, but id loose too many £1000's. It means I'm so far invested now I have to see this though. Even if it means I need to go balls to the wall, get a Pure Motorsport/Sandy Brown special on the head, fit a set of genuine R3 cams and run some sort of standalone?!?

However, yes I think there must be an issue somewhere potentially more than cam timing. I'm just not confident cam timing is going to extract 20bhp more????? So I'm trying to work out what common components are on the mass of 402 cars running 210-220 vs whats on mine. I'm struggling to draw much other the R3 manifold/sports cat setup or my lack of a 64mm TB, both costing me power???

Timing I'm sure will need changing, it looks like catcams vernier on the exhaust cam will be the way forward. I'm going to speak to a few places tomorrow, namely TDF as they have experience on Ben's engine doing those cam tests a while back. I did phone RS Tuning today but didn't get hold of Paul, his colleague however told me standard inlets wont do 220bhp. I did mentioned the R3 Maxi 230 and R3 Maxi Evo 250 using standard inlets lol! Still everyone says Paul is the expert there so I'll try again tomorrow.

 

[TB Rich]

[MENTION=1903]sokol[/MENTION] thanks for the graphs, what was the full spec of the 403 engine please, pistons etc?

what scale should the torque be? It says ft lb, but I'm guessing it didnt really make 500+!!

cheers

 

[Yiannis197]

However, yes I think there must be an issue somewhere potentially more than cam timing. I'm just not confident cam timing is going to extract 20bhp more?????

I've seen/read about stock cars with wrong timing (mainly after changing belts) producing around 170bhp and running like dogs. It does make a big difference.

I wouldn't think that inlets and tb is a restriction.

 

[TB Rich]

I've seen/read about stock cars with wrong timing (mainly after changing belts) producing around 170bhp and running like dogs. It does make a big difference.

I wouldn't think that inlets and tb is a restriction.

I have first hand experience of suffering a timing raping by catcams, but still I remain skeptical! It's apparently on std timing and the tool fits properly square between the 2 grooves, cat make their cams to run on that timing. So it's "right", just not optimised "right", or the tool isnt fitting square!? I'll see about finding someone local to check it and also comp test it to see if its higher now its 12.5:1

The reason I started this was because I was told the bottom end was fadged, turns out it was absolutely fine!! But tbh I felt the top end was crap after I fitted the manifold and cat combo, but it was put down to being unmapped and having a fadged bottom end....... now it transpires the bottom end wasn't fadged, maybe the mani is a pile of wank? However despite the bottom end being 'fine' the engine as a whole was only rocking about 170psi so not great.

Nah inlets and TB would be chasing down the last 1 or 2bhp really, so if it made 220bhp then that's the kinda thing I would have started on. This deficit is way more than that so you're right there.
So it's manifold/cat and/or timing really. Right then, I better crack the **** on!!

 

[Raptor6767]

That's not right!

You can't install catcams with OEM Renault tools!

Couple of different mechanics did that on mine Clio 2009-2014 and it resulted in 2 blown engines.

You have to use a comparator and a Catcams tool in order to install them properly.

 

[Azagedon]

I think you've won the award for worst luck of 2015 already! I thought I saw you the other day opposite BP ringwood road had a kiddies sun shade on the rear window?

 

[TB Rich]

[MENTION=50771]Azagedon[/MENTION] Not me mate, no kiddie sun shades would be seen dead near my car! And besides there is no thinking you saw me, there is knowing you HEARD me! You see it well before it's in sight, I'm gonna have to do something about the exhaust, since the manifold it's just mental!
[MENTION=58]Raptor6767[/MENTION] oh, that doesnt sound good. It's using stock timing with the stock tool. I was told the blanks are machined like that and then they offset to say x degress advanced/retatarded as required? Can you tell me more about the comparator? I've never even heard that term before?

cheers

 

[sokol]

403's are made to run on standard renault timing tools, but looks like they don't made addvertised power like that.
[MENTION=38628]TB Rich[/MENTION]
It was stock engine.With ported head, intake, light flywheel and 403's with catcams valve springs. Car made 213 HP and 219 Nm of torque.
As you have pistons with deaper valve pocket you can play with timing.It is the only way to gain some power and I'm sure you will.

 

[TB Rich]

Thanks sokol, maybe 403 is a bad choice? Seems like they dont perform as well as 402's??? TDF reckon they could of got 225bhp out of BenR1's engine if that had pistons according to the thread he made a few years ago.

Looks like I need to get the timing sorted but I have a feeling I'm going to be dissapointed, last time I use catcams that is for sure.

Anyone know if proper R3 230 cams need verniers on both the inlet and exh cams?

 

[TB Rich]

I think you've won the award for worst luck of 2015 already!

Oh and to make matters worse mate, got a score in the brake disc from a caught stone I guess, and the whilsting noise I'm pretty certian is a wheel bearing. So now just investigating whats required and if I should do both sides or not etc?

 

[Gez]

I hope it works out for you Rich. I know I'd be feeling the same way after spending £7k...

I do think there's a simple issue that'll be solved and then extract the remainder of your Hp

 

[Rogue]

Its sickening really. Could have been running about 340brake if you'd gone boost with that kind of cash.

 

[litchy]

I've been there really wanting to keep it NA. It's an absolute money pit. 230bhp is easily 10k+. Even then as a daily, it will drive like a pig.....

 

[TB Rich]

Yeah it's too late now though litchy, I'm 7 large in, although that does inlcude labour, clutch, steel fly and of course I no longer need a cambelt/water pump service this year. I figured about £1200-£1500 if I did those 2 things and bought the same parts. So lets call it £5500 in on 'tuning', but still if I bail now I'm going to end up going postal!

Just been speaking to a chap who runs 405's (on here in fact, Proil or similar), they are supposed to run std timing according to cat - but apparently it wouldnt map right at all with out being re-timmed. Useless catcams again (massive trend here!), I used to be such a catcams fanboi, not now at all. Buy Shrick, no - buy a jap car!

Anyway I'm gaining confidence timing is everything here. Couple it with a 64mm TB and a decat for good measure and I think we'll be cooking

 

[Gez]

Yup! Head High Rich! You'll see the power you want.

 

[TB Rich]

Yup! Head High Rich! You'll see the power you want.

I'll hold you to that mate, you know it's money my way if you're wrong And don't go abusing your mod powers and edit these posts!

Anyway sick of cars, time for Brooklyn nine-nine on +1 !!!

 

[Raptor6767]

Buy or get this Catcams tool and have your mechanic fine tune them to the Catcams specifications


View attachment 11322

You can't just install them with the Renault timing tool because the timing won't be good.

My mechanic made the tool especially for the 402's because i had one head extra. Now he has that tool especially for the 402's (this "half moon" tool has "the right angle" now to lock the cams)

View attachment 11323