LY200 - too loud or blow up again, taking bets!

[TB Rich]

Haha you change exhausts like trackdayers change wheels

Akra should have been the last one!? But I think it might have been induction related at Bedford anyway - can't see my manifold making the car mega loud over others who run the Akra for which I've never seen a noise issue with.

I'll be at Combe or Brands I think for first track back in this, so they tend to be easier. Failing that do my ARDS and go on test days!

 

[TB Rich]

Car's back, sounding a lot better so I think it must have been blowing a fair amount before! Windows mostly been up as wet and cold today...but couldn't hear any rasp like before so very happy

Wiring penciled in for 7th, will be firmed up later but I don't think timing is going to allow for track days given the time of year, so assuming it might be feb time now? Though gives me time to put some Recaro SPG in I guess

 

[bedoef]

So to summarize, you've got

- ITB
- 402 Catcam
- Headers
- Cat back (Akra)
- Loads of custom wiring / standalone ECU

and it made 232 bhp! Hell of journey to get here on this build, I bet it will be a riot to drive on track days!

 

[TB Rich]

So to summarize, you've got

- ITB
- 402 Catcam
- Headers
- Cat back (Akra)
- Loads of custom wiring / standalone ECU

and it made 232 bhp! Hell of journey to get here on this build, I bet it will be a riot to drive on track days!

Cams are 403's, full list of engine spec below.
Main items that would yield power increases I've put green, and the more secondary items that might contribute a very small amount but sort of add up to compliment the sum of the whole package in blue.

I don't know if the 232 is accurate, I suspect 220-225bhp is slightly more realistic given last 2 results were basically 190 and 193 @ wheels. As I think 193 ->232 @ 20% transmission loss seems a bit high. The mapping results were 191->220 @ 15% which is more inline with fwd losses as I understand it. Key take away is it now makes more at the wheels than a stock car makes at the fly I guess!

• Pure Motorsport 48mm Jenvey ITB kit

• Pure Motorsport radiator and twin fan kit

• Specialist Components Delta 800 ECU

• Ashford Motorsport/Ilmor ported head

• Catcam ‘403’ cams

• Custom Eibach ERS valve springs

• Supertech forged stainless inlet valves

• Supertech Iconel exhaust valves

• ARP rod bolts

• ARP head bolts

• ARP main cap studs

• Aros R3 exhaust manifold

• Akrapovic Evo exhaust system

• Clio Mk4 R3T fuel pump and Cup Racer fuel pump cover

• Radium Engineering Fuel Pulse Damper (XR)

• Clio Cup Racer X85 A/C delete

• Alloy lightweight crank pulley

• TTV lightweight flywheel

• Odyssey PC950 battery

• Setrab oil cooler

• Mocal sandwich plate

• Pure Motorsport -10AN Billet breather plate

• Mocal catch tank

• KTR/Vibra-Technics engine mounts (lower torque link, gearbox, main engine)

• Powerflex upper torque link bush

• PROGold fuel and lines installed by Pro-Line Motorsport

 

[bedoef]

Can you still run standard internals with the 403s? No clearance issues?

 

[Raptor6767]

Do you have any 100-200km/h runs?

Cheers BTW. [emoji469][emoji847]

 

[TB Rich]

Can you still run standard internals with the 403s? No clearance issues?

Yeah I am and no problems, I've known of several engines running 403's now without issue on standard pistons - they are designed to be that way.

There was some info floating around on this forum years ago about 403's not clearing the exhaust cam, I think it was from a cam test by TDF, anyway long story short it was actually 404's they were testing hence no clearance. 404's are the first in the range to need bigger pockets on the pistons, been a long time since I looked at the specs but iirc if you look at the cam specs the 403 to 404 has the biggest jump in exhaust cam lift between any other 2 adjacent profiles. - They're the cams I really should have run minimum on my forged builds!

I've seen 1 report of a guy who had an issue on the FB pages, they needed to disable the VVT to stop interference I believe. So either the head had the shit skimmed out of it, or it was incorrectly timed. IMO it's critical the first time you install a new set of cams to check timing of them with a dial gauge (checking lift at TDC method). On these if they're machined correctly then when the engine is at TDC and the cams are in position at the correct lift, the stock timing horseshoe tool should fit perfectly into the 2 horizontal timing slots on the cams.
I spoke a long time ago to a guy who used to fit lots of Cats and he found fairly often the horseshoe wouldn't fit, meaning the indexing that the timing slots have in relation to the actual timing the lobes are giving is wrong. Mine have been checked by a couple of places now over the years and luckily they are machined correctly, but if they're not you just need to heat and bend a timing horseshoe to fit the slots and you can then use that paired to those cams for all future timing jobs.
So worth the extra expense to time it properly in the first instance, and with a wilder cam like the 403 which is as wild as you can really get on stock pistons/clearance...it's basically a necessity I think.

So in reference to that engine with an issue, if the cams were machined particularly badly and it wasn't timed the correct way to check, then I can see problems. I very much doubt this engine was timed that way and I also have a feeling based from comments I seem to recall around that time, the engine was actually timed with the mk2 Group N timing tool (which advances the inlet and retards the exhaust cam)! Totally wrong for a mk3, especially when using Cat's. The inlet is constantly variable on the mk3 unlike the mk2, so you'll just mess up the referencing if the base cam position is advanced unnecessarily on the dephaser. And secondly I doubt there is enough margin on 403's to be messing with the exhaust cam timing really, not safely anyway.

Anyway, yeah 403's work just fine which you can see in mine for a start.

 

[TB Rich]

Do you have any 100-200km/h runs?

Cheers BTW. [emoji469][emoji847]

Oh man not you and your speed run videos again!?!

yeah will do at some point mate, it might be some months before it stops raining over here mind!!!

 

[Raptor6767]

Oh man not you and your speed run videos again!?!

yeah will do at some point mate, it might be some months before it stops raining over here mind!!!

Hahaha...I know but it's the best way to measure the performance of the car because dyno/rollers can/do vary.

 

[TB Rich]

Bit of an update and monologue. Took a trip across the country to Caffeine and Machine last weekend (saw another nice LY there), so that pretty much concludes the shake down of the car as far as road use is concerned.


And so with that completed I've booked it's first track time since it all went wrong at Combe back in May '17! I'll be at Snet on the 25th if anyone else is going here?
I'm trying to approach it as a shake down and make sure it all works and comes home under it's own steam rather than my usual balls-to-the-wall and blow the thing up approach! I'm aware tyres and brakes could do with a refresh but I'm not inclined to spend a lot of money on Cup2's all round until it's proven itself reliable. I will however chuck some new rbf660 and pads on it before, but the replacement rotors for the bells I'll again save that for after (chance the rotors might clean up with hard use anyway).

Other little jobs but won't effect the day if not done in time are I've still not had the UCH coded to hopefully address the dash warning (should be someone coming today for that), and I'm going to install the thermostatic plate and move the oil temp sensor from the sump to it. Where it is now it seems to read too low so I suspect the boss was put above the oil level.

Also I want to look at getting some weight out the car but without turning it in to a spartan 2 seater, I'm thinking I'm probably at -50KG if not more with everything currently done:

• Exhaust, r3 manifold (insanely light that thing), small battery, steel flywheel, alloy crank pulley, large amounts saved under the hood from a/c delete, itbs, loom, general big reduction of plastic etc

If we take the weight of 1240KG as stock book figure, then puts me at ~1190KG.
Target weight is 1125KG to achieve 200bhp/tonne. Taking 225bhp as the figure, I think the 232bhp result is a bit high and better to under egg it anyway. So about 65KG to be saved...

• Recaro SPGs (-30kg for the pair?)
• Remove Isofix bar (-5kg?)
• Remove the tar like sound deadening under carpet and boot (-5kg?)
• Carbon door cards (no speakers etc) (-10kg?)
• Plastic screen on the rear and no wiper (-20kg?)
• Plastic side rear qtr (-10kg?)
• Potentially plastic door windows too (-20kg?)

Probably about 80-100KG to be saved so should be easily doable, which it would be great to keep the rear seats and trim so that way car can still be used for everything from car shows and days out, to track days, and the school run
It's not a daily but I cannot shake the opinion that as a fwd hatch it's best asset is its versatility, I start to massively restrict how it can be used when removing the rear seats etc and then I start to think I should just get an Elise or whatever.

 

[TB Rich]

Started to do a bit or research on weights and looks like I was truly miles off on how much would be saved by plastic windows! Found this post from the forum which has it all weighed out.
-11kg total to be saved and that's fixing the windows up front and removing the mechanisms which accounts for 3.5kg of that. As I was thinking I would not run sliders (keep them operable and use lexan margard hardcoating to stop scratching), we're looking at a saving of say 7-8kg, that's probably not worth it I think. Certainly not the front doors anyway as there's a compromise no doubt to the fit/finish/weather protection etc.

Might struggle to get down to the weight I want whilst retaining the rear seats then :\ Guess I could always try and get more power right...

 

[lewishunter98]

Started to do a bit or research on weights and looks like I was truly miles off on how much would be saved by plastic windows! Found this post from the forum which has it all weighed out.
-11kg total to be saved and that's fixing the windows up front and removing the mechanisms which accounts for 3.5kg of that. As I was thinking I would not run sliders (keep them operable and use lexan margard hardcoating to stop scratching), we're looking at a saving of say 7-8kg, that's probably not worth it I think. Certainly not the front doors anyway as there's a compromise no doubt to the fit/finish/weather protection etc.

Might struggle to get down to the weight I want whilst retaining the rear seats then :\ Guess I could always try and get more power right...

I don't think more power is the answer after what's happened previously! [emoji23] Things like wheels etc will help to save a few kg's aswell I guess!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

 

[temeeo]

Depending on which size of the SPG seat you're thinking off and how are you going to mount them you could save more than 30kg. I've only replaced the drivers seat but the sportster seat felt surprisingly heavy in comparison.

The standard size SPG is 7.5kg plus whatever mounts you decide to use.

Also if you do end up getting a pair (I eventually will) the rear seats will become unusable as it will be hard to access them.

 

[TB Rich]

But when is more power not the answer

Yeah probably right, I think more like 40KG. The CS are about 30KG each, think I recall 27KG?? Where as SPG are 6.5KG according to the Recaro info I've seen - then plus side mounts which are what ~2KG for driver and I guess ~3-4KG for passenger with a slider.

Annoyingly I had a set of Recaro Apex that I bought and only ever trail fitted, realised I couldn't use the rear and so sold as at the time it was a daily. Too dangerous to be using the rear seats frequently when the kids wouldn't be able egress quickly and safely - might be a pic of them fitted in this thread tbh.
Apex were the exact same shell as the SPG too just not trimmed with the wear patches and belt guides, but I at least know they're very comfortable. Also I'd at some point use my spare 200 CS yellow dot seat covers to trim the centre panel of them in OE material, should look nice and factory I hope.
The difference this time as to why I would use them is the cars not a daily and the rear seat access is therefore very infrequent, so I'm not too concerned by that and the passenger seat would likely be on a slider to further improve things.

My old seats, doh!

 

[TB Rich]

@temeeo oh also which side mounts are you using (they Rentune ones?) and how's the height in relation to the stock CS height? At the moment I've got Madeno lowered frame on the CS which is about 4 or 5cm lower and probably about spot on.
I know my endeavour with the Apex I tried both the OMP and Sparco subframes (both with Recaro low profile side mounts to go from side to base) and they were probably the same again lower and it was too much.

Cheers

 

[temeeo]

I actually tested the Apex for size before I ordered the SPG (didn't know anyone with SPG). I think it would look well with the removable cushions re-trimmed in the 'dot fabric'.

Interested to see what you'll do regarding seatbelt, my solution is not ideal (mounted to the side mount) but it's 'temporary' (planning on getting half cage with 4 point Scroth Profi FE II ASM harness - has quick release buckle and can be turned into 6 point harness)

 

[temeeo]

@temeeo oh also which side mounts are you using (they Rentune ones?) and how's the height in relation to the stock CS height? At the moment I've got Madeno lowered frame on the CS which is about 4 or 5cm lower and probably about spot on.
I know my endeavour with the Apex I tried both the OMP and Sparco subframes (both with Recaro low profile side mounts to go from side to base) and they were probably the same again lower and it was too much.

Cheers

Yeah using the Rentune cup racer style mounts. using the top slot in front and second hole from top at the back (to get more tilt / better leg support in front). Mounted that way they are in around 2 inches lower maybe more, took me a moment to get used to it (visibility out of car) but love it now, did a trackday just before New Year and it made massive difference. Absolutely love them, comfy (for proper bucket seat) and really supportive.

 

[TB Rich]

I actually tested the Apex for size before I ordered the SPG (didn't know anyone with SPG). I think it would look well with the removable cushions re-trimmed in the 'dot fabric'.

Interested to see what you'll do regarding seatbelt, mine solution is not ideal (mounted to the side mount) but it's 'temporary' (planning on getting half cage with 4 point Scroth Profi FE II ASM harness - has quick release buckle and can be turned into 6 point harness)

Seat belt, hmm not given much thought about that actually, but thinking on the fly... I would think weld a small additional say 2mm plate for strength to the inside of the side mount and drill a hole right through the mount and plate. Then weld a captive nut on the inside and lastly just flat some black paint over it with a dummy bolt in to keep the threads clean.
That would be essentially exactly as per the stock seats have the receptacle mounted (to the seat frame), so I don't see an issue? The thickening of that area with the extra plate on the inside would add strength and robustness.

Yeah I was pretty sure I was going to go for a rear cage and the exact same harnesses with the extra +2 on the crotch! I've flip flopped on this idea so many times now, but having used the car last weekend with taking the kids to Caffeine and Machine, it just gave me some clarity on what I want from the car overall - and ultimately why I bought the thing in the first place! I'm hoping I've just turned it up to 11 basically
Meh, who knows... when they're older no doubt they'll be an LY cage sitting in the car!!

 

[TB Rich]

Yeah using the Rentune cup racer style mounts. using the top slot in front and second hole from top at the back (to get more tilt / better leg support in front). Mounted that way they are in around 2 inches lower maybe more, took me a moment to get used to it (visibility out of car) but love it now, did a trackday just before New Year and it made massive difference. Absolutely love them, comfy (for proper bucket seat) and really supportive.

View attachment 138063

View attachment 138064

Ah nice one cheers. I reckon that's a bit lower than where I'm at now. I could lose some height, maybe a few cm's - but I think it looks based on the pic that they might be a touch low for my liking? Easy enough to use a bit of box section to raise things, or maybe even copy the side mounts but make taller again, but it looks close enough to take a punt thanks.

This is where I'm at now. Looks like the drivers seat is reclined to my eyes, but they were both vertically aligned.

 

[Yiannis197]

Rich, I'll be servicing my diff and changing clutch and slave whilst at it in the very imminent future (only 18,000 on a new clutch and slave...) and I'm sure you know where this is going.

Lighter flywheel. Talk to me. There is absolutely NO solid evidence whether this is a good or not mod on a road car. It's not a daily but it's a road car nevertheless. There are 2 camps out there, you have one and your feedback is always solid.

So?