LY200 - too loud or blow up again, taking bets!

Thanks, I'm not a huge fan of aux gauges so this seemed the best way to do it subtly. Still vaguely toying with the idea of having a wideband gauge, that though presents a problem with where to put it... if I do that I'll probably get rid of the stereo and have them both on a carbon insert. -But given how long it's taken me to getting around to do this, it's not a problem that's likely to rear in the next 2 years I'd say! :smiley:

Mind you can get those PLX multi gauges that can toggle between the modules you daisy chain on them, so that might be a neat way to do it. It'd still retain just a single 52mm gauge in the drivers vent and just have expanded functionality on it.
 
Decided today to go back to Surrey Rolling Road for a power run to obtain a more accurate comparison using the same rollers where my first ever run on this car was performed. Back then it had just a Supersprint Race cat-back exhaust and a K&N panel filter, where it made 193bhp and 154FtLb. Today it made 212bhp and 182FtLb, with more power everywhere! Unquestionably last years tuning has been a difficult and much more expensive journey than ever planned, but a resounding success regardless.
I also of course now have a new baseline figure for which to compare against the next set of changes that’ll come this year; headwork, wilder cams and ITB’s. The order of which hasn’t been fully decided and a reaffirmed objective is of course not to trash the mega midrange the car now has. This means the cam choice will probably more mild than I was originally thinking… but what’s the point in chasing an overall peak figure if I ruin a hugely drivable engine as it is now :smile:

Just to add it pretty much held the power to 7500 and as this was the 2nd run that's why lifted earlier. Crazy that it's making peak at 6800rpm, but the fact it stays flat it's been suggested it could be a volumetric efficiency plateau so headwork and inlet might yield decent gains even on the 403's at the top... something I'll be spending the next few days researching but still I think at least 404's have to go in next anyway.

wpid-wp-1452346534895.jpg

wpid-wp-1452346525806-750x410.jpg
 
Decided today to go back to Surrey Rolling Road for a power run to obtain a more accurate comparison using the same rollers where my first ever run on this car was performed. Back then it had just a Supersprint Race cat-back exhaust and a K&N panel filter, where it made 193bhp and 154FtLb. Today it made 212bhp and 182FtLb, with more power everywhere! Unquestionably last years tuning has been a difficult and much more expensive journey than ever planned, but a resounding success regardless.
I also of course now have a new baseline figure for which to compare against the next set of changes that’ll come this year; headwork, wilder cams and ITB’s. The order of which hasn’t been fully decided and a reaffirmed objective is of course not to trash the mega midrange the car now has. This means the cam choice will probably more mild than I was originally thinking… but what’s the point in chasing an overall peak figure if I ruin a hugely drivable engine as it is now :smile:

Just to add it pretty much held the power to 7500 and as this was the 2nd run that's why lifted earlier. Crazy that it's making peak at 6800rpm, but the fact it stays flat it's been suggested it could be a volumetric efficiency plateau so headwork and inlet might yield decent gains even on the 403's at the top... something I'll be spending the next few days researching but still I think at least 404's have to go in next anyway.

wpid-wp-1452346534895.jpg

wpid-wp-1452346525806-750x410.jpg

From the picture, it looks like the mods you've done has enabled you to not rev the engine as high as OEM, but still get more power!
 
From the picture, it looks like the mods you've done has enabled you to not rev the engine as high as OEM, but still get more power!

Indeed on the most part it is pretty effortless power now, but it's still worth revving out for out-right pace as it holds power right to the end.

I think the answer is in the head though, I've got a graph from a car with 405's and ITB's and that engine does exactly what mine does at the top - so wild cams and ITB's may not help util the head is able to flow more.

405cams.jpg
 
Good story here Rich!
So the question is, who knows how to tune heads? That's a dark science that is..

I sent an email to Pure Motorsport for pricing on a big valve head and a standard valve size head - possibly custom grind cams too. I know they often use Sandy Brown for their work (iirc he designed their own comptetion spec F4R (257bhp/188FtLb) and I rate him very highly.
I'll also speak to Ashford Motorsport (the ones on YouTube with the 279bhp/194FtLb!), apparently Ilmor do their heads for them!
I'll also get pricing from Spead and ALD who the mk2 boys seem use a fair bit.

I am now swaying against big valves I think anyway. I was pretty keen to go for the oversize valve option for 35mm inlet valves because both the K20 and Duratec use that size and make big power, however.. the bore sizes are 86mm and 87.5mm respectively. The narrow bore size on the F4R means a valve that size is potentially going to be excessively shrouded. Sure an 84mm Maxi over bore would no doubt help - but I'm not pulling the engine apart to rebore the block and then buy new custom pistons! As the 84mm off the shelf pistons are 2-ring slippers for 150mm rods and short stroke crank. Not the OEM crank and 144mm rods!! So some CP custom pistons in a 1-off size, £800?, £1000?... more?!? Don't know but I'm not doing it regardless!

Pretty much the info I have right now is the stock valve sizes are easily able to support an engine revving to 8k making 230-240bhp anyway and that going bigger will likely just be at the detriment to gas speed at low valve lifts. Without a solid lifter profile spec cam with short aggressive ramps I don't really want to compromise these areas.

It does beg the question what shall I do with my complete spare 21k mile 200 engine. Think I'll sell it and that would pay for most of the head work! And if I ever sell my Recaro Apex that'll pay for the cams so I'm getting itchy feet now to do it asap! :lol:
 
I would say head work is the way to go...

the fr4 compared to same something like a Honda k is a big difference in ports - I should have taken a photo when we had both in at work but got distracted at the time
 
headwork, wilder cams and ITB’s...

what’s the point in chasing an overall peak figure if I ruin a hugely drivable engine as it is now...

Epic posting mate :smile:

Hope this all goes ahead. Although between what you have in the car already, the spare engine (SPARE ENGINE!!! :smile: ) and the Recaros... couldn't that all just go towards a proper ground up built motor?

Either way, looking forward to hearing what happens.
 
Yeh buy a twingo 133 shell or something and drop your spare engine in there, that would be giggles!!!
 
Epic posting mate :smile:

Hope this all goes ahead. Although between what you have in the car already, the spare engine (SPARE ENGINE!!! :smile: ) and the Recaros... couldn't that all just go towards a proper ground up built motor?

Either way, looking forward to hearing what happens.

Yes, it was a good price for a 21k mile 200 lump so I couldn't say no! :smiley:

I know what you mean as I didn't necessarily intend when the build was commissioned to go quite as mad, but there is def no point in selling my forged engine as there is nothing wrong with the forged bottom end and I wouldn't actually change anything about it. All it now just needs is a played with head, wilder cams and potentially the induction side of things. - Other than the cams there is no repeat purchasing there...the kick in the teeth is the repeat labour though :worried:

The only way to do the bottom end "better" would be short stroke steel crank, 150mm rods, pistons to suit and an 84mm bore on the block. But that setup only makes sense going to 8.5k+, and at that point you're definitely needing solid lifters. Problem with these engines and solids though is due to the cam cover being an integral part of the cam bearings, which means you can't quickly check clearances (valve lash). Also the adjustment on the lifters I've seen are via lash caps over the valve stems and not a bucket and shim with an adjuster that you chuck a feeler gauge in and 20mins later you've sorted the clearances on. So it's a full top end pull apart to adjust them and even just to check is full engine re-time :worried: I had a great idea around designing a custom rocker and dedicated cam bearings etc but christ knows how much it would cost me to get machined - a pipe dream I think!

Also that sort of setup is basically R3 Maxi Evo spec and those are rated at 4000KM rebuild schedules! So I would say I've realistically achieved about the optimum you can get on the bottom end with good components balancing performance and service life. The top end IMO needs to stay hydraulic lifters and single valve springs to keep the balance there also. So nothing needs drastically spending as I've got the valves and valve springs already so should just be a port job and new cams. Induction is very much a we'll see what it makes as to if it needs it, the limited slam panel room means tract length is going to be short and on the mytichal 8.5k+ engine that wouldn't be an issue, but on a motor I'm aiming to make peak about 7.5k with a hard limit at 7.8k (maybe 8k but not keen) it very much might rape the midrange.

Amazing mate! Head work will definitely make some improvements, the cast marks on these heads are awful

Good to know, was looking forward to pulling the spare engine apart to look and measure - but now that probably won't happen!
Vaugely tempted to do the headwork with the same cams in fact, arse about that is paying labour twice if I then later do cams. You've timed these engines haven't you? What's it like with genuine tools? Can't be that hard can it like a lot make out?

Yeh buy a twingo 133 shell or something and drop your spare engine in there, that would be giggles!!!

Ha not a chance!! Though would be funny in something like those mk2.5 campus things!!

what a journey thats been..well done..so more to do??

Of course, always more!!! :wink: I mean what else would I do with myself!
When I finally get where I want with the engine I'll turn to suspension. I've a vague idea of where I'll go with it but it'll be thorough from front to rear, bump steer kit etc.

I just have to resist the urge to build a road-going rhd version of this (minus the spoiler as I love um naked!!):
sport_clio_cup2_63_semaines_20_2010_sports_clio.jpg



(jesus christ it's pictures like this that ruin me....MUCH WANT!)
 
Doesn't it makes sense to take the 200 head from the spare engine and doing all the machining work there while you keep the car on the road?

You have a good setup and you know how much power it makes, swapping the heads would allow you to quickly (couple of days) check how much you gain by having a ported head keeping the cams, intake and all the other stuff...

Unless you need to sell the spare engine to finance the build you're looking at a new head gasket anyway...
 

Nope, and like you say it's a somewhat dark art with the ability to screw a head is very real. I'm only interested in using somewhere with race pedigree and proven results.

Doesn't it makes sense to take the 200 head from the spare engine and doing all the machining work there while you keep the car on the road?

You have a good setup and you know how much power it makes, swapping the heads would allow you to quickly (couple of days) check how much you gain by having a ported head keeping the cams, intake and all the other stuff...

Unless you need to sell the spare engine to finance the build you're looking at a new head gasket anyway...

Yep it does, and is why I bought the engine for easy swap over in a day. But, as I am not doing big valves now, it seems a bit mental to buy another set of £350 Supertech's that I already have. I suppose I can sell my head after for decent money with them in....? I may still strip the new engine.....I'll speak to the guy who wanted the rest of it all and see if he wants it first.

cheers
 
Have you heard of a guy named Neil Roper Rich? When I was doing my - not so extensive - research a while back in regards to head porting I bumped into his name.

PH speak very highly of him (is it good or bad I don't know), apparently he's got f1 experience on this subject and his website is ****e which can only be good because the worse the website the better the mechanic:smile:

Paul in here has done some headwork on his race car but not sure about the results. Maybe he can share his experience with us [MENTION=78]PROIL[/MENTION]
 

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