AST's and brake setups.

[Kelv]

Hey Guys,

im starting to look in to the coilover and brake options for the 197, this is for heavy track use, with the only road going mileage being driven to/from a trackday if the tow car/trailer is out of use.
on the coilover side of things, im looking at the AST's, having run these on the Trophy for a fair while and being very impressed with them in the enviroment they were being used in, but yet to know of anyone running these on a 197.

im looking at trying to find some healthy feedback, for and against if need be, for what peoples experiences are with these on the 197, and if they found they needed to invest in anything extra to compliment them, such as suitable top mounts as an example.


on the brakes, how do people find the brembo's for heavy track use, what disc/pad setup are you running with these calipers?
again, my refferences are from the Trophy where i found the factory setup to be moderate, and swiftly upgraded to a 4 pot setup.
is there an AP 6 pot kit readily available, or is this drastically overkill for the cars weight and requirements?

i only reffer to the AP6's as ive run these on many trackday cars over the years and felt they were perfect for my driving style and track work that ive done, but happily accept that the cars ive had them fitted to were significantly heavier than the 197.

again, any feedback or input gladly welcomed before i satrt wasting money on the wrong products.

many thanks

Kelvin.

 

[Gam]

Hi Kelv,

I found that the standard discs and pagid pads I have on are not up to the task for trackdays but everyday road use they are more than acceptable. I've just put on some Tarox F2000 discs on the front with new pads being decided very soon. I think you will find most people here run DS2500 pads or one of the different compound CL pads.

 

[Kelv]

thank you for the input Gam.

ill do some digging about.

 

[BenW]

Not many people on here have tried the ASTs, there was one guy who I think actually helped develop the kit but he's since sold the car and moved on. Not sure if he sold them to anyone on here but from what I remember he was pretty happy with them.

The Brembos are great in my experience, I've run them with DS2500 pads which weren't up to the job and overheated leaving nasty deposits on the discs. Now I'm running carbon lorraine RC6 pads which are a mild track sintered pad which are phenomenal on standard discs. I did try K-TEC's 2-piece discs but wouldn't personally bother with them again, didn't see any big advantage and seemed to be more susceptable to deposits than the OEM discs

Remember if you're looking for a pure track car that you can buy any of the bits from the clio cup and R3 race cars, including suspension and brake setups. Might be worth looking into

 

[Kelv]

Ben, appreciated buddy.

 

[RSinclair]

My friend runs ast's on his clio 200 cup and they are really good but you have very poor service from ast ie if you need spares or have a problem with them.
I run kw clubsport on my 200 and they are just as good plus you have great after sales with them.
Brakes i run the performance friction big brake kit and they are amazing on track no need for bigger callipers.

 

[Paul]

They are available from KAM RACING and have solid top mounts available too.

The pic on their website is of Mark's car with the AST's fitted.

 

[mark_1873]

As Paul said I had them on my 197 Cup they're were amazing on track. Great on the road too but you have to have them in the softest setting for road use.

As for would I buy them again as a product, I'd do it in a heart beat but as a package...no chance I waited 2 months on them as they were special order, after sales was shocking and communication with the AST uk rep was shocking. Fair play to KAM Racing who I bought them through they were always chasing them up etc. and were brilliant.

Go for KW Clubsport or KW V3 IMO

I've V3 on the Megane and really like them but they're not as easy as the AST's to adjust.

 

[Kelv]

I've run AST's on the Trophy, blown away with their track ability, but I also appreciate the AST UK after sales support from Curtis can be a PITA and a bit slow, but I can handle that after a few experiences with him.

ive run KW V3's in the past on a MK2 FRS and to be honest I just couldn't quite get on with them, but having had them on a MK1 FRS found them pretty good, but not quite in the same league as how I feel about the AST's on the Trophy.

i have indeed seen them on KAM's site, but was just after some feedback from those running them, but I didn't expect it to be just a small few having used them, I guess the after sales can influence people's opinion.
its nice to hear Mark that you rated them highly on the 197/200, that's handy to know.
road usage im not worried about, the purchase of the car isn't for road use anyhow, so optimum track ability is top of the agenda, as the car will only live in my unit and come out (via the trailer) for trackday use.



Sinclair, that's awesome to hear in the brake side of things aswell, thanks for the input.


all replies appreciated

 

[mark_1873]

If that's the case then mate go for the AST's. the V3's certainly aren't on par with them on track and i haven't experienced the club sports.

Noticed you were looking for a brake recommendation too. I used to run AP Racing 310mm two piece kit on the Cup. Awesome brakes, never faded etc. one thing they have over any 330mm kits around is curved veins to aid cooling. Much higher spec of disc IMO

saying that I'm currently using Godspeeds 330mm kit on Megane and can't see past them for the cost. Though I'm only using DS2500 pads with them just now so I don't know how they'll hold up to more aggressive pad.

 

[fredrickr26]

I have Ast's on my R26 and are simply brilliant on road and track, as for brakes I always say plain clio hc's are brilliant and only £68 per set delivered on amazon.

More road than track = ds2500's
more track than road = ds1.11's.

ds3000 are good but don't last so avoid unless you want to change your pads very often.
very bad for pad transfer for novice drivers also.

Rc5's fall to bits and rc6's are a race pad which generate massive heat, they will discolour your calipers and may even destroy piston / seals and leave deposits on wheels and body work you may not like.
Good pad apart from that.

JJC race and rally is a good place to call for pads.

Fluid and hoses first mod on the braking side IMO.

Hope that helps.

 

[Yiannis197]

I'm running ASTs as well. I've got a review on the "what suspension have you got" thread and on my project thread.

The suspension is brilliant. End of story. It simply transforms the car, different league to KWs and any other twin tube setup out there. I really can not believe why people pay so much money for V3s/clubsports when they can get the sportline II (monotube, inverted blah blah) for a around £100 more! Crazy...

After sales?? Do people have problems really? I got mine from Mark fish, I had a slight issue with the rears (the adjuster knob seized) so we had to send them back to holland to sort them out, it took 1 week. Then, I wanted to use some spacers for more droop travel, they sent them to us within 2 days. For FREE!(check my thread for details mate)

I have no complaints with ASTs and their service whatsoever. And by the way I'm running them on the road and not on their softest setting, track setup (80nm, 110nm front and rear). I'm on my alpine trip atm, people here can't believe what the car does on the road! High speed corners are ridiculous...

Brakes, I'm running pf 330mm with ds2500 and ate sulerblue. The brakes are really good BUT I was expecting them to dissipate heat better. First day of the trip, I gave them some stick on some serious downhills and I cooked the fluid, therefore I had to stop (slow down). The lotus boys are still laughing at me for having spent £700 on them...damn! I'd have to try a better fluid next time..

Hope that helps mate

 

[Kelv]

It helps perfectly, I appreciate your time to reply, I shall also dig up your review and project thread.
its helps to confirm in my mind that the AST's are the right choice (for me atleast) for the 197 (more so as a deposit has been placed on an R27 today) so I can crack on with getting things in motion for it.

ive not had any problems with the ATE fluid on the Trophy, and that's running some 4 pots at present, but a little lighter a car, which can also make a difference to the braking efforts.
i was always a fan of the Motul RBF660, but I will look at options again when I order something.

330mm sounds perfect size size, but I'd like to push the braking as far as I can get away with, but I'm unsure if an AP 6 pot (CP5555) would fit within the wheels due to the high offset and 17" size.
i hope I'm correct in thinking the wheels are an et55.


cheers again guys

 

[MikeH]

Standard wheels are usually 63 or 68 et, can never remember which one off the top of my head

 

[Yiannis197]

Original offset is 68 mate. And according to what people have reported is impossible to fit 6 pot calipers under the original size wheels (you'd need 18s).

I'm running OZs with 55 offset and the clearance is 2mm!


And you are right re weight etc. trophy is around 1000kg isn't it (please correct me if I'm wrong)? My R27 is 1240 plus luggage tools jack etc...300kgs more does play a significant role when abusing your brakes extensively. I'd have to give the motul 660 a go I suppose!

Please let us know of your future upgrade decisions, make a project thread of your R27 what colour btw?

 

[fredrickr26]

You really don't want pf330's if heavy track work is your plan.
Plain 197 disc, ds1.11's, fluid and hoses and you will have a brilliant set up which is affordable to maintain and will never fade.
Even the Megane's which race in production touring cars run this set up and is copied from the Clio racers.

 

[Kelv]

Tbh, and I do appreciate the response, I'm not so worried about it being cheap to maintain, I'd want the best braking ability I can get to fit with the wheels, something that I'm not going to come even close to finding the limitations off.
my main track i use normally a good couple of times a year is the ring, which I'm sure you can appreciate can be demanding on the brakes... I have the approach of belt and braces, over engineer than 'that should do'.

i really don't want to come across as cocky or to big for my boots as that's really not me, but I do like things to be done as good as I can get them... Wherever possible at least.
on an old Escos trackday project I ran water cooled 6 Pot AP's with a 378mm floating disc setup, so I'm happy to put the money in to a kit that's going to cater for everything that's required.

the R27 has been bought purely to be a project trackday toy to replace the Trophy, which is no longer a road legal car anyhow.
its likely to be off to Custom cages for a full cage before the year is out, stripped of anything that isn't required with an aim to clock up as many trackdays as possible during 2014.
its already set to be dragged along to the ring in October for a basic shakedown and see how I find it out there.


i really do appreciate people's responses with what to try and what's been tested already, it helps me endlessly.

Yianni, that looks über close, freightingly so, but as that they say a miss is as good as a mile!
i think the Trophy we got down closer to 900kg in the end, fibreglass panels, all sound dreading in the whole car fully removed, whatever wasn't needed was cut out, I got a little caries away with it

 

[Fernandez]

You really don't want pf330's if heavy track work is your plan.
Plain 197 disc, ds1.11's, fluid and hoses and you will have a brilliant set up which is affordable to maintain and will never fade.
Even the Megane's which race in production touring cars run this set up and is copied from the Clio racers.

Have to disagree, the lads running 330mm disks have constantly better laptimes as they have improved braking power. iirc the Clio cup race cars use the std size and Brembos because of regulation. Probably the same reason why the megs use them too.

 

[N0ddie]

As Fernandez has said.

Nobody could match the braking performance and consistency of us couple of guys running the PF 330mm setup. Unfortunately as I only videoed my timed lap (Which has no traffic) its difficult to explain. However, in "real life" the difference was huge.

 

[Mentalpen]

As Fernandez has said.

Nobody could match the braking performance and consistency of us couple of guys running the PF 330mm setup. Unfortunately as I only videoed my timed lap (Which has no traffic) its difficult to explain. However, in "real life" the difference was huge.

I followed N0ddie on the how fast open pit hour, I caught him under acceleration but when it came to braking he was in a different league!

I swallowed a brave pill and stamped on the brakes and used the gears to slow and despite slewing from side to side in my efforts I missed the corner by some margin.


CL RC6 pads are epic but as has been pointed out produce an incredible amount of heat, if you were wanting to do lap after lap you would need to duct air in to say out.