Who's using Cup Racer / R3 bits?

TB Rich said:
Ah but this isn't a basic MacP setup, it has a steering knuckle :wink: so the kingpin inclination axis doesn't run through the top mount and wishbone bottom balljoint.

This is Ford 'revo' but exactly the same concept as Renault (and also Vauxhall HiPer):
revoknuckle_01.jpg

You can still of course use top mounts on the main strut to gain camber, but the lower balljoint can ONLY increase camber if you lengthen it. Without lengthening it then it operates always on the same radius/arc. There is no 'maybe operating on the same' line.... if the subframe wishbone mount is in the same position, then with a wishbone of a fixed length it simply can not operate off the raidus line. Think of the wishbone subframe mount as fixed to the centre of a circle, and the EE balljoint will always stay a fixed amount away from the centre point no matter how it is rotated :smile:

I'm told you can't get more than about -3deg on the top mounts alone, and hence why the Cup Racer must have a longer secondary bearing position (EE bracket) to push the hub out and achieve around -4.5deg, and also this movement at this position will give a track width increase :smile:.

If you can try and measure the 'red' and 'green' distances on the previous image so we can work out the 'yellow' - that would be awesome :thumbup:
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I know the difference between perfohub/revoknuckle and McP, but its irrelevant in this case.
Consider two setups being the same in every aspect except lower hub to wishbone mounting point (in setup #2- on the right, mounting point is moved to the right compered to the setup #1). If wishbone have the same lenght in both cases and wishbone to subframe mounting point stays unchanged just as top mount position, DOES the wheel move further out with increased camber? YES or NO?
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jacool said:
I know the difference between perfohub/revoknuckle and McP, but its irrelevant in this case.
Consider two setups being the same in every aspect except lower hub to wishbone mounting point (in setup #2- on the right, mounting point is moved to the right compered to the setup #1). If wishbone have the same lenght in both cases and wishbone to subframe mounting point stays unchanged just as top mount position, DOES the wheel move further out with increased camber? YES or NO?
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I think we are arguing the same point but using a different fixed point of reference. The fixed point of reference however should be the wishbone because its length remains the same and therefore it must operate on the same radius.

Although your diagram is not a knuckle, essentially in your diagram what you are doing is moving the hub mounting left for more camber, this is not moving the wishbone mounting right because the wishbone cannot be moved right due to the fact its length does not change and so must operate on a fixed radius.

Pretty much we are saying the same thing but it is in fact the EE main lower balljoint position on a Knuckle that does this, and not the position of the wishbone balljoint.
The EE balljoint essentially is the blue location in your diagram.

jacool.png
 
TB Rich said:
I think we are arguing the same point but using a different fixed point of reference. The fixed point of reference however should be the wishbone because its length remains the same and therefore it must operate on the same radius.

Although your diagram is not a knuckle, essentially in your diagram what you are doing is moving the hub mounting left for more camber, this is not moving the wishbone mounting right because the wishbone cannot be moved right due to the fact its length does not change and so must operate on a fixed radius.

Pretty much we are saying the same thing but it is in fact the EE main lower balljoint position on a Knuckle that does this, and not the position of the wishbone balljoint.
The EE balljoint essentially is the blue location in your diagram.

jacool.png
Click to expand...

No, what You're saying is point E' position between OEM and Cup setup makes the difference in track since pivot is set at a different angle (yellow vs red line; PS. doesn't it affect upper ball-joint being placed at a different angle in the pivot holder, possibly putting more stress on the part? - food for thought).
What I'm trying to say is while You may be right, it can also be the case that the point E may be responsible for difference in track width (orange lines represent how OEM EE bracket is lined up with the pivot holder). Without measuring both brackets You can't be sure.
TBH I don't see the point of this argument, just as I don't see the point in making alternative EE bracket just to save Yourself lengthening the driveshaft (fairly easy and inexpensive job)
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I don't think it will be the EE 'knuckle' balljoint anymore like I first thought because it will throw the scrub radius out... so you are probably right that it is the balljoint wishbone adding the camber and track.
The confusion (not argument!) however was you said move that wishbone balljoint position right - and because I look at the wishbone balljoint position as a fixed point because its distance is always dictated by a fixed length (the wishbone). However you were implying move it right of the hub and yes that of course makes sense - I just didn't see initially what you were saying.

Or at least that's what I think...it's late here now and I'm on my phone so not re-reading it all!

Yes but using longer shafts gives the lock issue on the rack which is not ideal on a road car, but I'm possibly taking a new direction with the car so might not be a problem.
 
TB Rich said:
I don't think it will be the EE 'knuckle' balljoint anymore like I first thought because it will throw the scrub radius out... so you are probably right that it is the balljoint wishbone adding the camber and track.
The confusion (not argument!) however was you said move that wishbone balljoint position right - and because I look at the wishbone balljoint position as a fixed point because its distance is always dictated by a fixed length (the wishbone). However you were implying move it right of the hub and yes that of course makes sense - I just didn't see initially what you were saying.

Or at least that's what I think...it's late here now and I'm on my phone so not re-reading it all!

Yes but using longer shafts gives the lock issue on the rack which is not ideal on a road car, but I'm possibly taking a new direction with the car so might not be a problem.
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Maybe I didn't make myself clear - english is not my native language.
As for longer drive shafts and lock issue, it may be a problem on a road car. Last saturday i had a first drive with my car after many months of build and was trying to make a U-turn in a tight roundabout... and failed. There was VW Passat incoming from other direction, and the look of the driver's face (or should i say facepalm) - priceless :wink:

P.S. new direction with the car? details please
 
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Maybe a bit of language and certainly a bit of me! (by the way your English is very good mate and I can't speak another language at all!).

Ah that doesn't sound good for the lock issue on roads and was why I wanted to avoid using them.
New direction....well I am almost certain I am going to buy a daily car and a trailer...which means I can be more extreme with the Clio. So using Cup Racer EE, longer shafts and racks shims are no problem.
My ECU has full iVtec control too :wink:
 
TB Rich said:
Maybe a bit of language and certainly a bit of me! (by the way your English is very good mate and I can't speak another language at all!).

Ah that doesn't sound good for the lock issue on roads and was why I wanted to avoid using them.
New direction....well I am almost certain I am going to buy a daily car and a trailer...which means I can be more extreme with the Clio. So using Cup Racer EE, longer shafts and racks shims are no problem.
My ECU has full iVtec control too :wink:
Click to expand...
hahaha, I knew it will end up this way, it always does (at least for me).
Type-r engine and Clio Cup chassis - that would be a weapon. (although have to say that with Cup intake, exhaust and shrick cams F4R sounds mental with idle set to 1400 rpm
 
Yep it always does, I should have learnt!!

Trouble is running a forged block like I have really isn't suited to daily work, I need to leakdown test but I think I'm at the point I need to do a mild refresh on the rings because the oil consumption is getting a bit high. Really the best scenario also is an over bore to the next size (83mm)..but that's a lot of extra money on new pistons too. Now as I also I still want a lot more power too, then if I add the price of a bottoms end refresh, bigger cams, head work and ITBs - I think I can easily put a K20 in for that.
I believe most of the hard work is done because I have an ECU already integrated with the car over CAN - so I think I can modify a Honda loom to go into the ECU adapter harness pretty easily because basic it's only the basic sensor stuff to change really.
Drive shafts custom but easy (just expensive), and exhaust manifold - but not hard because it's the R3 item I have its already 4 branch tubular so a proper custom place will be able to do a flange swap and tweak to the headers quite easily...!

We will see, but basically I'm not sure another 4k on an F4R is very wise!!
 
so [MENTION=38628]TB Rich[/MENTION] @jacool just to recap what else is needed to fit the longer EE brackets guys? Are longer shafts necessary or not?
 
Longer shafts I believe are minimum, however should also use tie rod ends to track them at the same angle as wishbones, and also the steering rack limiter shims.

The current thing stopping me from buying them tomorrow really is the need for the rack limiter shims, something I don't want to do on a road car. So thinking about maybe having a mould of the arches done and then produced in CF but with a +30mm flare. - However I've got too much going on with the engine swap to contemplate the sort of expense that might run to!! Def one for the future I think.
 
Slightly off topic but also related, can anyone confirm that the front calipers on the R3 are different from those on the road car? Or can maybe point me in the direction of someone I can contact in order to find out?
 
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DS197 said:
Slightly off topic but also related, can anyone confirm that the front calipers on the R3 are different from those on the road car? Or can maybe point me in the direction of someone I can contact in order to find out?
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Same calipers yes but different mounting points & brackets on both Maxi variants.
 
if you fit the EE brackets you need the longer cup race anti rotation arms. However what renault have done is just cut and sleeved a normal set and charge stupid amounts extra!!2017-03-22 18.11.51.jpg
 
Just to keep this thread on a roll!... I have just started the racer geo setup! Maybe a parts list of the bare minimum?

1) EE brackets
2) Anti rotation links (+12mm?)
3) Steering arms/track rods (+12mm?)
4) Drive shafts (+38mm?)
5)...

Please modify the above to suit!

I wasn't aware of different track rod ends, in fact I've only ever been told the rack shims are the correction for the bump steer and that the track rods and anti rotation links just need to be longer.

Cheers
 
Thanks for the input guys.

Okay I've been talking with rentune again, he has measured the shafts as +25mm, and it working on getting a good material etc and will be test fitting to ensure a good fit.,

Dummy fitted to a road car, they add 2.5 degrees to the camber!

The anti rotation links he is also measuring as he knows I'm just sleeving mine lol!


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