Who's using Cup Racer / R3 bits?

Discussion in 'Suspension, Brakes & Steering' started by TB Rich, Jan 27, 2016.

  1. TB Rich

    TB Rich

    Messages:
    2,115
    Location:
    Bournemouth
    Car:
    Clio 200
    Just wondering if anyone is using any of the genuine competition Renaultsport stuff, and how much we can use assuming stock subframe and steering rack are retained?
    I don't want to change one thing only to then discover to make it work actually requires a bunch of other bits :worried: I'm not interested in more pioneering efforts!

    So I guess the idea would be use these bits:
    [TABLE="class: grid, width: 800"]
    [TR]
    [TD]EE brackets
    [/TD]
    [TD]Restore wishbone angles (think that's what the EE bracket is for?)[/TD]
    [TD]Concern over needing wishbones, driveshafts, arb links and anti rotation links too?[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Rack shims
    [/TD]
    [TD]Restore track rod angles for bump steer[/TD]
    [TD]These should just fit independently?[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Lower subframe brace
    [/TD]
    [TD]Stiffness[/TD]
    [TD]Maybe need the subframe? Probably not even needed and maybe easier to use the Ultra Racing lower brace?[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Subframe link supports
    [/TD]
    [TD]Stiffness[/TD]
    [TD]Maybe need the subframe? Not sure where the other end of these attaches either, so how easy to fit?[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]


    I'm sure it'll probably transpire that the only sensible option from Renaultsport is the R3 Access coilovers as I seem to recall the Clio Cup Michelin road series cars are just using these with no other substantial changes?
    However for the actual dampers and springs I'd probably use the Ohlins kit anyway rather R3 Access, but I want to know if there's any fancy bits we can use in-conjunction with? Something beyond just basicly coilovers?


    Cheers
     

  2. cliokam

    cliokam Paid Member

    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    Bedford/Birmingham
    Car:
    197 cup
    I have cup racer topmounts and bilsteins. I had the plates welded in for the topmounts, in the future i would like the ee brackets etc but i havent really looked into custom driveshafts, nor do i know how long they would need to be, as well as the longer tie rods etc.
    17B892CA-BCC6-4A7C-9344-538111AF7199_zpsgr5kafkq.jpg
    87C8F3FA-D8C0-4A59-AE61-E4ECDE85453A_zpso9sei0qt.jpg
    4CFF678D-0948-4081-B73A-FF9F5F4B7217_zpsqovw9cea.jpg

    29B5B7A8-2299-4D22-B253-7CD329BA620E_zpsxtapzfgz.jpg
    All of the work was carried out by sean at jade developments, highly recommend speaking to him, he also set up my geometry etc.
     
  3. TB Rich

    TB Rich

    Messages:
    2,115
    Location:
    Bournemouth
    Car:
    Clio 200
    Thanks, didn't think you had to weld for the top mounts - or did you do that optionally? Also are you are still using the original ARB drop links and the lower anti rotation links (not sure their correct name?).

    Kalzatis do custom shafts to Cup Racer length for TL4 gearboxes, I will see how much they are. But I dont want to be spending £3-4k on suspension really, hence I need to establish the interoperability of all the parts first :smile:

    Cheers
     
  4. cliokam

    cliokam Paid Member

    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    Bedford/Birmingham
    Car:
    197 cup
    Petty sure it has the same anti rotation links and drop links but again I'm not to sure as I didn't fit them myself. Some how I bent one of my old spax shocks which I was running with sinos top mounts and Sean had these laying around so he done me a good deal, including the welding in of plates and fitting/setup I paid less than I would for ast etc.. I guess it depends on how much you can get hold of the suspension for. They are awesome coilovers thiugh, handling is leagues above the spax and topmounts I had before but as expected it's pretty stiff for the road.

    I'm not sure if he topmounts they use with the r3 access/Michelin road and race series will work with cup racer suspension, I didn't look into it really but again jade developments welded the plates in and painted them for a very reasonable price.

    Oh very nice, is that a website or a person? I don't suppose you have a link so I could contact kalzatis about the drive shafts for a quote, of if you find out could you either post here or pm
    me

    thanks
     
  5. Yiannis197

    Yiannis197 Paid Member

    Messages:
    3,697
    Location:
    London
    Car:
    Clio R27
    I'm only using the shims Rich as my car is lowered, not very low though. These shims are 9mm.

    When i bought them I also bought the cup racers steering rack bolts thinking that they would be longer however they are exactly identical to the normal models. My mechanic was not happy using the original ones as (for his opinion) there was not enough thread so I ended up using some custom ones.
     
  6. TB Rich

    TB Rich

    Messages:
    2,115
    Location:
    Bournemouth
    Car:
    Clio 200
    I'll probably use the 9mm shims from the Reyland caliper spacers as I'm going to fit the later billet spacers so will end up with 4 x 9mm shims spare! Good point on the bolts - I'll order 1 new rack bolt from Renault and then source 2 x HT bolts to suit with a longer thread.

    Ok I'll have to speak to Jade then, I don't intend to buy the Cup Racer dampers/springs though - 75N/mm front and 130N/mm rear is bonkers for my application.
    I watched the vid of building a Road series car and I don't recall welding...? but I'll watch it again and check as I thought by default they were bolted - it maybe just an easier/more secure thing to weld.
    The Kalatzis link: http://autel15.wix.com/kalatzisport
     
  7. cliokam

    cliokam Paid Member

    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    Bedford/Birmingham
    Car:
    197 cup
    The road and race series cars use adapters if i remember correctly, And of course cup racers have them welded into the chassis from the factory, I just opted for the welded in plates which go with cup racer suspension, I'm abot sure wether the bolt in option fit with the cup racer suspension, and wether weld in plates fit the r3 kit. Yeah they are pretty stiff but at the time he did have a softer set of springs but I chose to keep the cup racer springs.

    are the spacers you're talking about to raise the steering race and reduce bump steer? Thanks for the link btw
     
  8. TB Rich

    TB Rich

    Messages:
    2,115
    Location:
    Bournemouth
    Car:
    Clio 200
    Yep and this is the exact issue, what works with what! On further inspection of the top mounts in the parts diags, the R3 Access looks different to the Cup Racer. The adapters don't have part numbers from I can see so perhaps as they are welded that's why?- just come on the shells already perhaps?
    However the R3 Access doesn't even show any adapters in the diags? I'll watch the Vid again of the Road Series cars and compare to your image. But as I don't want anywhere near the spring rates of proper Cup Racers I'll likely shy away from that stuff.

    Yes the shims are to correct the track rod angles and reduce bump steer. I'll have 4 x 9mm shims soon so may machine 1 pair down to say 5mm, as I'm unlikely to go as low as Cup Racers, so I'll have a choice to try.
     
  9. cliokam

    cliokam Paid Member

    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    Bedford/Birmingham
    Car:
    197 cup
    In the Michelin road and race series video the topmounts adapters bolt to the chassis and then the topmounts bolt to those adapters. What are the spring rates on the r3 access kit? I just imagine it will be softer on the back?

    keep us updated on how the spacers go, it's something I would like to do.
     
  10. Raptor6767

    Raptor6767 Gold Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Car:
    Renault Sport Clio 197T & Megane 265 Cup
    I'm using Cup Racer's front ARB.
     
  11. TB Rich

    TB Rich

    Messages:
    2,115
    Location:
    Bournemouth
    Car:
    Clio 200
    Don't mean to be rude but that's a crappy thing to do unless running Cup Racer setup.

    ARB's reduce mechanical grip and so you want to use the lightest possible always, use them only to fine tune the balance of a car once the correct spring rates are done. The 22mm Cup Racer ARB only works on the Cup Racer because it has 130N/mm rear spring rates, remember also it is a 1:1 motion ratio because of being a rear coilover - the standard damper and spring platform arrangement will be apx ~1.6:1. So the net result is a 130N/mm on a 1:1 ratio = a wheel rate that is AS STIFF AS **** compared to standard and why they can run a thicker front ARB and not understeer.

    Short version is for why is when you have one end with a stiffer roll centre than the other end then you lean more on that outside tyre. So you work it harder, make bigger slip angles which = understeer.

    Cup Racer is like 70-130 (front-rear), so I wouldn't uprate the front ARB unless you're packing some proper rear end action :wink:



    Yep R3 Access is 71 & 74 front, 55 & 58 rear. Not sure why such subtle a difference is available, they talk about some weird number of bands so it could be different spring lengths depending on gravel or tarmac perhaps?
     
  12. Raptor6767

    Raptor6767 Gold Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Car:
    Renault Sport Clio 197T & Megane 265 Cup
    That's in (your) theory. :wink:

    In (my) practice it made the car less prone to understeer and given me 2s better lap time on the track (on the same tires and in the same conditions).

    I always use the same road from/to my house and there's a °90 corner and a ****ty asphalt (you can compare it to a good one only wet and in cold conditions).
    The same day I tested the car in that corner before and after the ARB - noticeable difference.

    I had a front Cup racer ARB, and KW V3 at the moment.
     
  13. TB Rich

    TB Rich

    Messages:
    2,115
    Location:
    Bournemouth
    Car:
    Clio 200
    Also when I said 'crappy' that was a poor choice of words on my part - glad you didn't take offence :smile:

    Yeah I can't explain things when they don't conform to the theory, because when all things are equal if you just increase the front ARB rate with no other changes you 'should' get more understeer. Of course more of 0 still = 0, if you still within acceptable paramaters elsewhere. I've seen a few people mention understeer on the 22mm ARB though so perhaps these guys were just on springs - tbh I haven't paid enough prior attention. But still I'm not doing it because it does go against the theory, as I am free to initially choose spring rates I'll opt for something like 70/70 and 1:1 on the rear means it'll still be pretty a hardcore back end over stock!!! Perhaps dial it to 70/60....?! See what Madeno are doing as default on the Ohlins (not the 6.5k Ohlins mind - they have R&T based kits now).

    Wish I could just phone Demon Tweeks and buy a set of B14's, but I never like the easy way out :wink:
     
  14. Raptor6767

    Raptor6767 Gold Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Car:
    Renault Sport Clio 197T & Megane 265 Cup
    I bought it after a friend of mine had it installed on his 200 with the V3's too.
    He shaved 2s off his laptime on the same track. If I quote him: "Damn, I'm having the same lap times with this crappy RS595R tires than I did on R888". :smile:
     
  15. TB Rich

    TB Rich

    Messages:
    2,115
    Location:
    Bournemouth
    Car:
    Clio 200
    Lies, all lies! **** even Jacko has issues with them...

    y4ssm.jpg
     
  16. Raptor6767

    Raptor6767 Gold Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Car:
    Renault Sport Clio 197T & Megane 265 Cup
  17. Kazumz

    Kazumz

    Messages:
    1,500
    Location:
    Wiltshire/Swansea
    Car:
    Clio RS 200 Gordini
    So much passive aggressiveness. It's quite unbelievable lol.
     
  18. jacool

    jacool

    Messages:
    126
    - anti rotation links are shorter on Clio Cup but original ones should work as well (they worked in my case)
    - ARB links should be similar to road version, i can measure that when I'll get my car back
    - EE brackets - no need to change wishbones, driveshafts longer about 38mm each side (measured by Renault Specialist on my car) - Kalatzis make them for around 800-900Euro (just shafts without joints), I had them made by local company that specialize in rebuilding driveshafts as well as motorsport/track applications for about 150Euro (sent them mine and received complete driveshafts with spare original shafts).
    Bear in mind that You'll gonna rub on Your fenders with Your wheels unless You fit proper shims that reduce number of turns lock to lock
    [​IMG]

    - rack shims fit independently but are just minor part of the anti bump steer kit, the main difference are tie rods that sit lower in hubs
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    My mechanic told me that the hole in the hub also need some minor machining for the nut to fit correctly but need to investigate it myself first
    - subframe brace fits just fine with two additional mounting shims (cable tied to subframe reinforcement on the right), but changing subframe is advised as it no longer have rubber bushes in it :smile:
    [​IMG]
    - subframe link supports - fit plug&play as far as i remember (not sure if the mounting bolts are different though)
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
    HIROSHI TOKUTOMI likes this.
  19. jacool

    jacool

    Messages:
    126
    difference with OEM vs CUP EE bracket:
    OEM
    [​IMG]
    CUP
    [​IMG]

    Bear in mind that the car is lifted and suspention was set just few mm below OEM ride height (winter setup) on the other hand the wheels are turned so OEM setup is a bit too flat compared to CUP setup, anyway You got the idea
    All in:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
  20. TB Rich

    TB Rich

    Messages:
    2,115
    Location:
    Bournemouth
    Car:
    Clio 200
    [MENTION=4111]jacool[/MENTION] Nice one! Huge thanks for the post and the images :thumbup: (Probably the 2nd best post on the forum mate - after my Jackson Popcorn one of course :wink: lol!!)

    Couple more questions though :smile:

    • So the Cup Racer subframe is solid not rubber bushed, any other difference physically or will it still work with the original steering rack, ARB and wishbones?
    • If I use the lowered track rod ends - would I also need the Cup Racer uprights?
    • When I say 'upright' I mean this bit in yellow:
    upright.jpg



    Now I think from everything I have learnt so far I don't want the EE brackets; I'm told you can still run around -3deg camber on normal EE brackets, and as I probably won't be going beyond -2deg they don't help there. Also I won't be going as low as a Cup Racer, so my need to fix the wishbone angle also won't be quite the same.
    • So I think EE brackets, longer shafts, shims to reduce lock are all unnecessary for my -2deg and say -40mm height.

    I am for sure interested in the solid bushed subframe, subframe link supports, steering rack height shims, track rod ends, and the lower support (but probably use Ultra Racing one).

    • Those bits and some Ohlins/Bilstein coilovers and shim the rear to -1.5deg camber and parallel toe.... should work and be a nice setup?

    Cheers,
     

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