Spring Rates & Damper Rebound - Rid me of this dreadful 200 Cup suspension

[ShantiT]

No, R3 Maxi's which use the Ohlins with remote reservoirs won't fit a regular car. The Maxi has almost different everything front and rear, look at the subframe, wishbones and hubs to see major differences.

I've got my eye on an Ohlins remote res setup though, Madeno Racing. If you Google 'Clio Ohlins VLN', you'll see they developed a kit.

Madeno have also got a couple of other Bilstein based options, one is revalved B14's and different spring rates. Another is using higher spec dampers front and rear (full coil rear too). Drop them an email and they'll be able to piece a kit together to suit.
Though I still reckon the Koni option seems like it would be right up your street for a 1/4 of the price. I wouldn't expect any change from 2.5k really for an Ohlins setup.

Thanks Rich. Do you know if the Group N (in the catalogue classified as 'Access') would fit? From what I can see the top mounts are adjustable and use the same as the Ohlins Maxi ones. So I'm guessing not.

That Madeno Racing kit looks awesome. Solid top mount fitting from what I can see in the pictures, so not for me. Not to mention dropping £2,500 is a bit punchy. Although compared to the £4,000 cost to refresh all four corners on a Trophy with new OEM spec the Ohlins seem cheap.

I'll keep researching the Koni set up and see what Madeno can do with the Bilstein. Slightly loyal to Bilstein having used them in tarmac and gravel spec on a 106 Rallye stage car with good results. That was with custom springs though.

Cheers for the pointers. Respect to you for the blog and what you've done to the LY.

 

[TB Rich]

Just on my phone and all catalogues are on my PC, but I'm sure I've seen the Access kit on road going mk3 before? They are Bilstein inserts and the spring rates I think are in the cat too as there are 2 options.

Those Ohlins might be more, maybe 3k+. Just guessing and exchange rate is pretty good right now!

 

[ShantiT]

Just on my phone and all catalogues are on my PC, but I'm sure I've seen the Access kit on road going mk3 before? They are Bilstein inserts and the spring rates I think are in the cat too as there are 2 options.

Looking at the catalogue in more detail the Maxi has five spring choices. Three for tarmac and two for gravel. The Access has just two.

Confusingly the Maxi and Access spring rates are shown in different measurement types. Deca Newtons for the Maxi are 6.7DaN/mm, 7DaN/mm and 7.5DaN/mm for the tarmac and 4DaN/mm and 4.3DaN/mm for gravel. Newton Millimetre for Access are 71N/mm and 74N/mm. I'd also presume these spring rates are optimised for the weight of a fully stripped car, with weight of roll cage and all underside guards. I've no idea what the spring rate of the standard spring for a Cup chassis is. Until that's known it's going to be impossible to know whether I'd be improving the set up or making it worse.

As the Access kit is simply an insert, then it should simply slip into the upright and, fingers crossed (but I doubt it would be that simple) a standard top mount could be used. My only concern then would be the pressures put though the suspension mounting plate on the chassis. I've had an insert punch up though and bend the bonnet in the past. That said, the insert had failed and we'd not slowed down, so the top mount was taking all the strain, until it gave up.

 

[TB Rich]

[MENTION=51465]ShantiT[/MENTION] Most rates below...

200 Standard Springs
Front: 144.5 lb/in (25.3 N/mm)
Rear: 215 lb/in (37.6 N/mm)

200 Cup Springs
Front: 224.8 lb/in ( 39.4 N/mm)
Rear: 260 lb/in (45.5 N/mm)

Eibach
Front: 27-45 N/mm
Rear: 32-54 N/mm

HR (Springs):
Front: 37 N/mm
Rear: 53 N/mm

KW Clubsports:
Front: 70 N/mm
Rear: 80 N/mm
(60 N/mm helper springs front and rear)

KW V1 & V3
Front: 50 N/mm
Rear: 50 N/mm

H&R Coilovers
Front: 80 N/mm
Rear: 80 N/mm

AST Coilovers
Front: 100 N/mm
Rear: 110 N/mm

X85 Cup Racer
Front: 75 N/mm
Rear: 130 N/mm

R3 Access
Front: 71 N/mm
Front: 74 N/mm
Rear: 55 N/mm
Rear: 58 N/mm

 

[ShantiT]

@ShantiT Most rates below...

200 Standard Springs
Front: 144.5 lb/in (25.3 N/mm)
Rear: 215 lb/in (37.6 N/mm)

200 Cup Springs
Front: 224.8 lb/in ( 39.4 N/mm)
Rear: 260 lb/in (45.5 N/mm)

Eibach
Front: 27-45 N/mm
Rear: 32-54 N/mm

HR (Springs):
Front: 37 N/mm
Rear: 53 N/mm

KW Clubsports:
Front: 70 N/mm
Rear: 80 N/mm
(60 N/mm helper springs front and rear)

KW V1 & V3
Front: 50 N/mm
Rear: 50 N/mm

H&R Coilovers
Front: 80 N/mm
Rear: 80 N/mm

AST Coilovers
Front: 100 N/mm
Rear: 110 N/mm

X85 Cup Racer
Front: 75 N/mm
Rear: 130 N/mm

R3 Access
Front: 71 N/mm
Front: 74 N/mm
Rear: 55 N/mm
Rear: 58 N/mm

You star. Thanks so much. Next, to find out the various damper insert rebounds. Standard springs while keeping the Cup insert might be a good place to start playing. You'd hope the Cup insert would be able to control the standard softer spring really well. In theory...

 

[TB Rich]

Only one way to find out! Get some non-cup springs and see

For your aftermarket options though, seems only the Koni dampers which are adjustable and designed I believe for the H&R springs - have the facility to offer what you are after.

Other than Steve who didn't contribute any further info, I don't know anyone else using them.

 

[ShantiT]

Only one way to find out! Get some non-cup springs and see

For your aftermarket options though, seems only the Koni dampers which are adjustable and designed I believe for the H&R springs - have the facility to offer what you are after.

Other than Steve who didn't contribute any further info, I don't know anyone else using them.

I'd say the non-cup springs are the place to start. One thing I've noticed about the Koni kit is that is states they are for the Mk III RenaultSport Clio including the F1 Team, but not the Cup. As mine is a FF with Cup suspension then I'd presume it's got the same dimensions and mounting points as the lighter and more basic spec' 200 Cup model. The Larkspeed website seems a little ambiguous on this front.

I also note that the Koni kit, if matched with the H&R springs, is the same type of set up as I used on the 106 Rallye stage car, softer at the front and stiffer at the rear (compared to OEM) to minimise the rear movement, as it's a twitchy car at the rear already. The less the rear wondered about the better.

 

[TB Rich]

Sounds like you'd be best off in a golf tdi, stable, soft and undsteer'y!! [emoji14]

It won't be that bad on springs, the rear arrangement of seperate spring and damper means there is not a 1:1 motion ratio, it'll be between 1.5-2, and closer to 1.5 I'd guess. The mk2 was 1.6 I think, not seen anyone measure a mk3.

This effects wheel rates which is actually what's happeing. The Cup Racers with 75/130 (and a true 130 because of 1:1 on the vertical rear coilover) - now that will be twitchy!!

 

[ShantiT]

Sounds like you'd be best off in a golf tdi, stable, soft and undsteer'y!! [emoji14]

Yea yea... ; ) The Rallye was mostly used on gravel and used gravel inserts in the front and tarmac for the rear. No springs on that rear trailing arm and just the size of the torsion bar to play with. Tim Hookway suggested the set up and it worked well. Bringing the rear into play was still easy peasy. With the firmer rear set up there was far less soft yaw motion and lolloping about.

It won't be that bad on springs, the rear arrangement of seperate spring and damper means there is not a 1:1 motion ratio, it'll be between 1.5-2, and closer to 1.5 I'd guess. The mk2 was 1.6 I think, not seen anyone measure a mk3.

This effects wheel rates which is actually what's happeing. The Cup Racers with 75/130 (and a true 130 because of 1:1 on the vertical rear coilover) - now that will be twitchy!!

I don't think the 200 is twitchy at the rear. I was referring to the Rallye being twitchy at the rear on a softer damper. The tarmac damper with a far higher rating cured that. So kind of like the way the H&R springs for the 200 are a softer front and stiffer rear.

Thanks for the detail on the motion ratio. Agreed about the Cup Racers. The ones I've seen on TV in the BTCC, and in person at Brands Hatch, look like they're on tip toes at the rear and would go round by just thinking about lifting off the throttle.

 

[TB Rich]

My Rallye only ever got B6 inserts and -20mm Eibachs, as at the time I bought the suspension I was doing it for fast road. So travel and compliance are king - which is what you're going for now with the Clio.
I ended up going nuts on that car though (like the Clio lol!) and it ended up much more track focussed so I was going to redo the suspension on the PTS Bilstein gravel inserts and gravel rear dampers, a set of roughly 190lbs custom front springs I think it was and the mid sized PTS torsion bar, think is was 22mm??? Bloody long time ago now!

Fastest way to lap a fwd is to dial out [as close to] all the understeer and the Cup Racers are quick with it too. I had 'a go' at one around Bedford when the 200 was stock, yeah didn't win that one! lol

 

[ShantiT]

My Rallye only ever got B6 inserts and -20mm Eibachs, as at the time I bought the suspension I was doing it for fast road. So travel and compliance are king - which is what you're going for now with the Clio.
I ended up going nuts on that car though (like the Clio lol!) and it ended up much more track focussed so I was going to redo the suspension on the PTS Bilstein gravel inserts and gravel rear dampers, a set of roughly 190lbs custom front springs I think it was and the mid sized PTS torsion bar, think is was 22mm??? Bloody long time ago now!

Fastest way to lap a fwd is to dial out [as close to] all the understeer and the Cup Racers are quick with it too. I had 'a go' at one around Bedford when the 200 was stock, yeah didn't win that one! lol

I thought about fitting the B6 and Eibachs to my road going Rallye, but I enjoyed it so much as OEM I didn't bother. The rally car was sufficient for fun. I used the PTS Bilstein gravel inserts at the front on springs purchased from Coil Springs in Sheffield that regularly (or used to) advertise in Motorsport News. The spec was for a front running 106 Rallye and I think most crews piled in after this chap that had them made and just asked for the same spec. I've no clue to the rate, but they were awesome. Most people ran the gravel damper on the rear too, but the Hookway trick was great. Kind of counter intuitive to run a mix of gravel and tarmac, but it was a great combination for me.

I'll keep you posted as to if and when I fit the standard non-cup springs, retaining the cup inserts and see what happens. I'm guessing the non-cup springs are going to raise the ride height at little to start. R-Sport are close to me so I may visit for a chat. Perhaps spend a little time on the phone with Mark Fish too.

 

[Yiannis197]

I don't think that Ohlins 2 way kit is £2.5k. Must be around £4k, AST 5200 (2 way kit) cost £3.5k and I'd guess that a completely bespoke kit has to be at a similar price, if not more expensive. Couple this with the brand name and you can easily reach the £4k mark.

I asked the AST guys how much they charge for upgrading the 5100s to 5200s and they came back with £2k without the top mounts (as I already got them). Allegedly, only one canister costs £228 plus VAT!!

 

[TB Rich]

B6/Eibach was just more of the same really, no downsides at all. But that was all yesteryear and time now to look forwards in our Clios!! Yep update this thread if you do run the regular springs with cup dampers, be interesting to hear the outcome.

Yiannis I was thinking the Ohlins might be about 4000euros (currently £2800). Though buying in the UK and it'd probably be 4000 gbp, and then like you say potentially even more perhaps? Only one way to find out but it won't be a while yet (and at that money never). I failed the drive-by noise at Combe which is a 100dB day (managed to go back out shifting at 6k luckily!), which means an Akra is now an ASAP purchase, but that's totally off topic!!

 

[bebbetufs]

Did you manage to find a good combo? I'm also considering ways of taming the rear a bit. Perhaps I should just buy new dampers, they've done about 50K miles.

 

[ShantiT]

Did you manage to find a good combo? I'm also considering ways of taming the rear a bit. Perhaps I should just buy new dampers, they've done about 50K miles.

Hi, no. I've not moved this project forward since exploring it. A combination of work and more interesting (less costly/wasteful) things to do.

That said, due to another long, bouncy and frustrating journey last weekend, I called Mark Fish this afternoon to run some of this debate past him. His view was moving to standard 200 springs and dampers to start with would be best. Kind of makes sense as it would be a good baseline. Combining the standard spring with the cup damper is something they were never matched to do by Renault. It might create a completely unusable combination. Reverting back to standard one can at least be guaranteed the parts are designed to work together.

I didn't realise removing the front uprights was quite as an involved process (wipers off, scuttle out, drive-shafts out) therefore timely and expensive compared to a couple of bolts at the rear. It kind of makes this experimenting expensive; as much as it would be fun, I don't have the time and facilities to do it properly myself.

The best option is likely to be reverting to the standard non cup set up and seeing whether this works on UK B roads at speed. If so great. If not, then maybe try the cup inserts with the non cup springs. If that's a disaster maybe the Bilstein's. Should that not work I'll give up and look to buy another fun car.

Mark's comment was "it seems you're seeking more of a tarmac rally car set up. Slightly softer springs and good damping to keep the tyre in constant contact with poorly surfaced roads at speed". I'd say that sums it up. Will update again if I revert to another set up.

As for taming the rear of your car bebbetufs, from what I can gather from Mark and others, is you need to go with a stiffer rear. Up the spring rates and rear dampers so it doesn't wonder around under hard braking. Most go for a softer front and stiffer rear. They're like that from factory, I guess you need to accentuate that more in your case if the rear needs further taming. All the best with it.

 

[Kazumz]

Just put normal 200 suspension on, not cup.

I find mine is nice on the road but not really great when pushing on. Depends on your preference matey. Physics is physics.

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[TB Rich]

As for taming the rear of your car bebbetufs, from what I can gather from Mark and others, is you need to go with a stiffer rear. Up the spring rates and rear dampers so it doesn't wonder around under hard braking. Most go for a softer front and stiffer rear. They're like that from factory, I guess you need to accentuate that more in your case if the rear needs further taming. All the best with it.

Nooo, if the rear needs taming you need to reduce roll stiffness via a reduction in wheel rate or ARB stiffness, and as we don't have a rear ARB there is only one option. If you stiffen the rear it'll promote more oversteer.
Conversely though you could stiffen the front end and leave the rear as-is, it's about balance afterall. Because which ever end of the car has the greater roll stiffness then the car will lean to the outside wheel on that end, this obviously works that tyre the hardest and creates the biggest slip angle - hence why a stiff front end gives understeer, and a stiff rear end gives oversteer.

 

[ShantiT]

Nooo, if the rear needs taming you need to reduce roll stiffness via a reduction in wheel rate or ARB stiffness, and as we don't have a rear ARB there is only one option. If you stiffen the rear it'll promote more oversteer.
Conversely though you could stiffen the front end and leave the rear as-is, it's about balance afterall. Because which ever end of the car has the greater roll stiffness then the car will lean to the outside wheel on that end, this obviously works that tyre the hardest and creates the biggest slip angle - hence why a stiff front end gives understeer, and a stiff rear end gives oversteer.

Fair enough Rich. Makes complete logical sense. Perhaps my wrong interpretation of what needs to be 'tamed and taming'. I've always found the rear fine (soft enough compared to front) for inducing a little lift off oversteer to help it round bends, but it can squirm a little under hard braking. That's my interpretation of what would need taming; not terrible oversteer mid bend.

In my experience the squirming is reduced under braking with a stiffer rear, as the pitching is reduced, but still remains sufficiently soft to invoke manageable oversteer, but not 205 GTi spin round on you when you lift off, oversteer. That said, the front had also been stiffened at the same time on the vehicle in question, so it wasn't just the rear being stiffened in isolation.

Much is down to personal preference and driving style of course. Thanks, as always, for the sage observations and critique.

 

[TB Rich]

Yep it'll have been the stiffer front reducing the pitch to tame that attribute. Though good point to raise that suspension should be considered as a whole or you'll always be chasing your tail!

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