LY200 - too loud or blow up again, taking bets!

[R27SG]

Hi, yep it is a straight fit. Sorry not been on the forum much recently with the car being engine-less!

Although...my new engine is built and ready to be collected! I've taken my own advice this time and used a pretty stock bottom end (ARP rod bolts, ARP main studs) and mated this to the fancy head with 403's still, ITB's (to be built) and R3 exhaust, and ARP head studs (tbh the ARP mains and heads were left over otherwise I wouldn't have bothered).
This way if it fails again all I need to source is a stock spare engine and just swap the top ends over pretty much. Unless the belt goes and mangles the valves, in which case it's just new set of Supertechs; but regardless it'll be FAR cheaper to replace now [emoji4]

It should still do around 220bhp but obviously is never going to make up around the 240's like it always should have done if I got the right cams in it, because now it's inhibited by the valve/piston clearance. I guess it could make up to about 230bhp if the ITB setup really works and the lengths all work out etc, it'll sound mental anyway!

Oh and continuing my run of worst car luck ever.......my 'daily' has died too! A water leak through the sunroof, ran down into the fuse box and is currently fucked! Possibly picking up a 220T Trophy on the w/end to get mobile again, grown too used to a dual-clutch for daily duties

Better late than never.

Anyway i have already fixed the FD in. It is not day and night but commuting around town is so much better now with more low end torque and i reckon the car should come stock with this ratio.

 

[TB Rich]

Nice, which ratios did you match it to in the end?

 

[tombate911]

Looking forward to keeping up with this build thread again. Interested to see what it makes with that set up, which is similar to something that I'd like to achieve with an NA build one day in the future. The intake noise will be so worth it!
Good to see you back on here posting updates mate!

 

[TB Rich]

Cheers, and I need to catch up on everyone's build threads too! I couldn't bare to keep up with them whilst my car was sat engine-less for what has probably been the best part of 5 months?!
I've got the car booked to have the engine put back in on the 16th, but what with the wiring to the fuel pump to do and other jobs, probably won't be til around Jan/Feb that it'll be ready to get mapped again. There is an ITB kit coming for the mk3, rad etc the lot, which I hope to be running, although this company has been talking of it for ages...! But it'll be worth the wait seeing how good their mk2 stuff is.

Yep I think this spec with all things considered, will represent roughly the best usable spec to value. Forged is all well and good but the reality is even 20bhp makes very little difference to your lap times, and so the extra cost is just pointless, especially when you factor the biggest draw back is you really don't want to daily a forged engine! All those cold starts - especially over winter - just knackers them quickly as they are of course gapped bigger on the rings as forged pistons expand more than cast. Granted mine never held up long enough to see how much use I could actually get out of them (lol)....but Clio's at heart are about doing everything and anything with So be good to getting back to thrashing it with reckless abandon!

N/A is all about the sound and feel as we know, so chasing bhp is silly and it took me a long time to realise that. Still better late than never I guess!

 

[tombate911]

Be interested to see the ITB kit they bring out. Helped a friend build a PH1 engine for his MK1 Clio with 421's and Jenvy ITB's recently which made 215bhp and 170ftlb, standard engine just ARP bolts throughout for good practise and if it has to come apart again. It did once when we'd built the engine up. Luckily able to reuse all the bolts!

Are you keeping the standard fuel set up or moving away from the Renault Control and powering it your self?
I thought I remember seeing a while ago about some of the potential problems with engines was fuel starvation related, possibly a fault with the control circuit? Maybe the wrong build thread though!

 

[jasekid]

Hi Rich, mate heart goes out to you. I have been really interested reading your thread, so much useful information about these engines in here. I am currently waiting my own engine build to be completed (maybe stupidly so after reading the info here). I will post a project thread when it is all done to share results. I will have before (already completed) and after dyno numbers on the same dyno so should be a reasonable comparison.

Basic spec will be as follows:
Forged engine
402 Cam
Arka Evo
Pure Motorsport manifold
ITG Maxogen intake

 

[TB Rich]

Yeah I'll be running a new relay and feed to the fuel pump directly from the Delta, avoiding any of the Renault wiring and UCH.
Most likely a new pump (mk4 R3T), new -6 lines and a Radium FPD just before the rail. I'm thinking return-less still tbh.

Jase, thanks for the support, however that's not a balanced mix of components. I mean this in a nice way to hopefully stop you from ending up with disappointment for the costs involved.
First problem is 402's on a forged engine is not a good idea. It's a complete waste in that you've all the valve clearance to run much bigger cams so take advantage of it, but crucially they are too small for a forged engine in terms of matching the static cr against overlap etc - it leads to a very high dynamic cr which is going to make your engine very knock sensitive! I've struggled all this time with 403's and high comp, 402's will be worse. I'd honestly not entertain anything less than a 404 on high comp.
A forged engine when matched with correct cams will also want to have the head done too, a stock head is good for about 220 before the exhaust becomes a choke - big cams & forged = much bigger potential than 220 for sure.
This then leads to the intake, assuming at least 404's on a plenum and I have a hunch that it'll be ok, a bit lumpy, but probably controllable with the VVT. However you'll be going out on a limb slightly, and find the need for ITB's which would ensure of course idle and low speed tractability is ok.

It's a balancing act building an engine, all the elements need to be proportionate.
If you were thinking of sticking to 402's so that you don't need the head doing or ITB's - well then don't get the forged pistons....trust me!!!!
If you were thinking of getting forged pistons because they are 'tough' and it'll be a strong engine.......well ignoring the ring gapping and cold usage issues etc, then by that token you'll also want single piece valves in the head, tagged bearings installed properly (i.e line bored caps etc)......it's an 8k build on the block/head, with induction/exhaust/ecu etc all extra.

Which talking of ECU, then that side needs looking at too! A forged engine really mandates big cams - and they want a proper ECU that can use TPS for primary load, not MAP.

All parts considered and it's £15k ish. And what 240-250bhp depending on cam choice. I'm pretty sure my new spec will do around 220bhp, but cost a fraction. Probably talking 5k and most of that cost is in ecu, induction and ex manifold - all of which are entirely reusable if I blow my engine up again, and chances are the head/valves would be fine too. It'll also be usable day in day out with no concerns to wear usage.

Certainly in my experience then the money spent on the pistons, rods (good ones not PEC), bearings/block build etc.....better spent on ECU and ITB's
If you've already gone balls deep on the build, I'd say at least swap the cams and get some head porting done, so that the core of the engine should be fine, and any ecu or itbs etc later can be easy addons.

 

[jasekid]

Thanks Rich, yeah you pretty much summed it up, I am already balls deep in the build, might look to change out the cam choice. Would a 403 be much lumpier at idle then a 402? Can you map a 403 on factory ECU or did you need standalone? If it all goes to sh$t I will just buy a factory engine and call it a day.

 

[TB Rich]

403's are not lumpy at all, they idled like stock which in fact disappointed me greatly!! They are still designed to work on stock pistons and aren't an aggressive cam. Iirc is the 404 has the biggest jump in specs between any 2 neighbouring cam profiles in the range, think it was the exhaust cam lift that takes the biggest jump and these are really the first cam to be used on high comp and take advantage of the valve clearance. I reckon it'd idle well enough tbh as you'll be able to close up the overlap with the vvt. - The non-vvt version of that profile (432 I think it is?) and yeah I doubt that'd idle well!

I never had much joy on the stock ECU with the 403's and high comp. Would run fine and then for no reason just stutter and bog down, would need to clutch down and blip it for a bit and it'd be ok again for a short while - bloody annoying on the motorway!
I later discovered while having the Delta developed that I had a shagged lambda, which might have been responsible in hindsight?? Especially given there is the Kalzatis Sport guys who ran 405's on a high comp with plenum - and reckoned it was ok on stock ECU mapped :\. They later switched to a Delta and of course better, but they didn't have the problem I did (not at all unsurprising mind given my magnetism to problems!). But a standalone on that sort of spec engine etc just makes a lot more sense.

 

[jasekid]

Thanks Rich not to sidetrack your thread too much but can't believe the power these cars lose turning the aircon on.

My stock Clio 200 (Akra Evo only mod) power is kwatw

• Red line aircon on
• Pink line standard run
• Green line addition of ITG maxogen (no tuning)

 

[TB Rich]

Yeah that does seem a lot, I would have thought maybe 3 or 4bhp at the flywheel, so that graph is what about 10bhp @ fly?! Is it back to back on the same day, same strapping down on the rollers etc?

I've got a Cup Racer a/c delete kit to pick up, I decided mostly for the space/weight saving, but a few hp wouldn't go amiss

 

[jasekid]

Yep, same day same dyno within maybe 2 hours. Dyno Dynamics dyno. Yeah those figures are at the wheels.

 

[R27SG]

Nice, which ratios did you match it to in the end?

4.73 into TL024

 

[TB Rich]

Yep, same day same dyno within maybe 2 hours. Dyno Dynamics dyno. Yeah those figures are at the wheels.

that's nuts then! a/c delete was all I need all this time then

4.73 into TL024

sweet, I think best when paired with the 1-3 ratios from either of the 197 boxes. & the 024 should be a bit more civilised than my 003 when cruising.

I didn't get a Trophy in the end, the LY 220 I had my eye on had sold on the weekend I was free. However took a new Mini Cooper S Clubman out, and christ what a nice car to drive! Might not be dual clutch but the box and clutch are great, so put a deposit down! The relevancy to this thread though, is that it absolutely highlights the need to go ham on the Clio! I need to create enough of a logical distinction between the 2 cars - otherwise it's 2 hot hatches essentially which is pointless.

 

[jasekid]

that's nuts then! a/c delete was all I need all this time then

Haha, yeah my tuner took the car for a drive and noticed that it seemed to rob a bit of power when he switched the AC on so decided to test it on the dyno. So yeah a 4.8kwatw or 6.4hp gain with it off (call it 8-10hp at the engine like you say).

 

[R12lye28]

I’ve been sick the last few days and read the whole build thread. EPIC! Hats off to your dedication!

 

[TB Rich]

Cheers, I've probably said it before but when you're balls deep there's no turning back! Think it was Raptor who summed it up best, 'married to the car'

Successfully picked the engine up from Ashford on the weekend, good to finally have a bloody engine again. It's ready to drop in this coming weekend, however waiting on a TRW slave cylinder and a couple of other bits from Renault. Apparently the TRW units are metal bodied and have a metal pipe, can't be any worse than Renault's plastic crap which have been known to leak from new. - But if it hasn't turned up by Thursday morning I'll have to get an OE one from Renault as a backup plan.



Spec of this engine as is...
-Ashford head
-Supertech stainless inlet/iconel exhaust valves
-Catcam 403's
-Custom Eibach valve springs
-ARP rod bolts
-ARP head bolts
-ARP main cap studs
-TTV steel flywheel
-Aros R3 exhaust manifold
-Akrapovic Evo exhaust
-Cup Racer a/c delete kit
-Delta 800 ECU
-(standard pistons, standard rods, standard bearings, standard block)

And once it's in I can start to plan the bodies and fuel system around it at long last

 

[suj]

I am so glad you are keeping this Rich and building it back up, I think that spec sounds perfect!

I heard about the TRW slaves also, do you have the part number / link to it, I might buy one for when (not if) mine decides to die haha.

Can't wait to see you back in the car using it in anger

 

[TB Rich]

It's a TRW PJQ192 - I bought it from AutoDoc for about £70, though I've just got an email to say it won't be here til Monday, turns out AutoDoc.co.uk are bloody German!

So I've had to order from RPD and hope it'll be here on Friday, as I need to get the car to the garage first thing Sat morning.
If it doesn't arrive it means re-fitting my current one, which has only done about 100 miles, but I've always been advised to replace it for new every time?? Why is life so difficult sometimes

 

[suj]

It's a TRW PJQ192 - I bought it from AutoDoc for about £70, though I've just got an email to say it won't be here til Monday, turns out AutoDoc.co.uk are bloody German!

So I've had to order from RPD and hope it'll be here on Friday, as I need to get the car to the garage first thing Sat morning.
If it doesn't arrive it means re-fitting my current one, which has only done about 100 miles, but I've always been advised to replace it for new every time?? Why is life so difficult sometimes

Oh Autodoc! I had the same problem when I ordered loads of bits, I didn't know they were based in Germany, took longer than I thought it would, but I weren't in no massive rush luckily!

Thanks for that, yeah I'm like you, if it's out, might as well do it properly, so you don't have to take it out again!