Intermittent engine shudder at idle and engine vibrations around 2300 rpm

[RS13]

Really hope someone is familiar with the below and found a way to fix this.

Symptoms of the shudder at idle:

Especially when the engine is operating temperature at idling, every few seconds there is a shake of the engine. I first noticed the shake while waiting at some traffic lights - every few seconds I would feel a slight shake through the drivers seat. When looking at the engine itself, every few seconds the engine visibly ‘shudders’. As soon as I increase the rpm slightly, the engine runs smooth. No power loss, no increased fuel consumption. A/C turned off.

Symptoms of the vibration at 2300 rpm:

When I increase the rpm at standing still, revs go up smoothly but at around 2300 rpm, the engine starts to vibrate. Revving higher than 2300 rpm, the engine runs smooth again.
While driving, there is a slight power dip at 2300 rpm and engines stutters a little bit. Above and below this rpm range, engine runs smoothly.

Recently had a major service and the following was done but problem is still there unfortunately:

- New timing belt and dephaser pully.
- New spark plugs (OEM)
- New ignition coils (OEM)
- New injectors (OEM)
- New engine mounts, all of them (OEM)
- Throttle body cleaned
- All vacuum lines are ok (smoke test)
- New PCV
- New MAP sensor
- New O2 sensor
- Electrical connections coils and injectors visually checked and cleaned with contact spray.
- (As good as) new complete OEM exhaust system including exhaust manifold.

I was really expecting that with this major service, these issues should be solved but this is not the case unfortunately. Very strange is that these issues seem to have worsened after the service.

Any tips and/or solutions are highly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!


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[Chocice]

Any reason for changing so many bits? Was it neglected and your recommissioning it as it Looks like you have renewed everything, did it have a 3rd party exhaust or decat on before you renewed it as it could be running a map for a toyo manifold or decat or what have you.

 

[DS197]

Have you looked at all the pulleys (especially the crankshaft one)?

 

[RS13]

Any reason for changing so many bits? Was it neglected and your recommissioning it as it Looks like you have renewed everything, did it have a 3rd party exhaust or decat on before you renewed it as it could be running a map for a toyo manifold or decat or what have you.

I am using my Clio as a daily driver. Replacing the parts is purely preventive maintenance. The car has done 150000 km now and want to go for the next 150000 km smoothly.

Manifold was an OEM but modified with supersprint part and 300 cells race cat, big middle damper and OEM back box. With this setup, the dreaded dip around 2500 rpm was no more. The car has been mapped (stage 1).

Symptoms described however were also present before the mapping.

Reason for going back to OEM exhaust is partly preventive maintenance but also because I am a sucker for a stock setup [emoji854].


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[RS13]

Have you looked at all the pulleys (especially the crankshaft one)?

Crankshaft pulley has been renewed as well.


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[DS197]

It is risky depending on how bad the vibrations are, but maybe it’s worth taking the front bumper/bonnet off, running the car on a ramp, using cruise control to hold the RPMs at 2300 and do a visual check?

 

[RS13]

It is risky depending on how bad the vibrations are, but maybe it’s worth taking the front bumper/bonnet off, running the car on a ramp, using cruise control to hold the RPMs at 2300 and do a visual check?

Engine runs smooth above and below 2300 rpm. Except for the intermittent shudder at idle.

Cruise control is not necessary as vibrations are also there when the car is stationary. Running on a ramp and checking is a good idea though.


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[turkie172]

Get a video with sound it could be the translation, you feel vibration or is it a noise you hear. It's more likely a fueling problem you need to clear error codes as a fueling fault error might make the engine run rich for safety and does not always show a warning light. If the engine mounts are not fitted to correctly pull against each other can be a problem the lower dog bone and upper torque mount put the car on flat ground put it in gear let the hand brake off then with the bonnet open grab the intake manifold and push/pull the car by the manifold and check how much the engine rocks forward and back. If the exhaust is standard check the flexi joints if they leak that could make the engine not run correctly and can be missed because they get louder slowly you don't notice until they are fixed then there is a big difference in noise.

 

[RS13]

Get a video with sound it could be the translation, you feel vibration or is it a noise you hear. It's more likely a fueling problem you need to clear error codes as a fueling fault error might make the engine run rich for safety and does not always show a warning light. If the engine mounts are not fitted to correctly pull against each other can be a problem the lower dog bone and upper torque mount put the car on flat ground put it in gear let the hand brake off then with the bonnet open grab the intake manifold and push/pull the car by the manifold and check how much the engine rocks forward and back. If the exhaust is standard check the flexi joints if they leak that could make the engine not run correctly and can be missed because they get louder slowly you don't notice until they are fixed then there is a big difference in noise.

Thank you for the tips! Will make a video with sound to be sure. It is definitely a vibration. Also will check for exhaust / flexi leaks next week and check for error codes.

Your suggestion for running rich is good one as I can hear sometimes a very small ‘explosion’ (more like a ‘poof’) from the exhaust at the time that the engine gives a shudder at idle.

Can you explain a little further what you mean with ‘pull against each other’ for lower dogbone and upper torque mount? These have been renewed but cannot imagine how these can be installed incorrectly.

Thanks again!


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[turkie172]

When to rock the car the engine will move in the same way as it does as you accelerate and brake

 

[RS13]

When to rock the car the engine will move in the same way as it does as you accelerate and brake
View attachment 149656

Hi Turkie,

That I understand and am actually with the car now rocking back and forth but do not really understand what to look for. I can see/feel the engine moving but what would the indication that there is something wrong? Too much movement, too little movement?


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[RS13]

Dear Turkie,

Made some videos but need access to my computer to send these as I only have my phone with me now.

Thanks again so far for your feedback!!


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[RS13]

Hi Turkie,

That I understand and am actually with the car now rocking back and forth but do not really understand what to look for. I can see/feel the engine moving but what would the indication that there is something wrong? Too much movement, too little movement?


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Below you’ll find a movie showing the torque arm moving while rocking back and forth.

iCloud Photos - Apple iCloud

View, organize, and share photos and videos with iCloud Photos on the web. Changes will sync across your devices with iCloud.

share.icloud.com

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[RS13]

Below you’ll find a movie showing the torque arm moving while rocking back and forth.

iCloud Photos - Apple iCloud

View, organize, and share photos and videos with iCloud Photos on the web. Changes will sync across your devices with iCloud.

share.icloud.com

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Just to be sure, please find the link for YouTube:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

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[Dutch_197]

Sounds very familiar, I have this hesitation around 2500 rpm, and then I can hear a rattle from the exhaust caused by this. Could not hear it before but I have fitted a customized OEM exhaust. The hesitating usually is worse after I drive normal for a while with little TPS load, I slow down and accelerate again normally. Under these loads I am in closed loop and the O2 sensors are used and I think it has a problem determining the oxygen levels (Bosch suggested replacement interval is 100Kmls/160K kms). The engine sounds it is running rich.

When I drive hard with wide open throtlle and slow down and start driving normal, there is no hesitation.

I have two new Bosch O2 sensors in the trunk. I also get a O2 sensor code pretty often when the car is warming up. When I erase it , it stays away during the trip. OBD reader indeed shows weird values so probably I am right (two O2 sensors 100 Euros).

I had the same with Twingo 1.2 GT, sometimes would not accelerate and felt like bumper car, got a O2 from Renault, instant fix.

One other suspects could be : I had a similar problem on a Scenic and it turned out to be a faulty coolant temperature sensor, the ECU also checks the temperature (usually a resistance value). Have not had time to check this on the Clio, I think the chance is slim, symptoms are poor running when warming up.

 

[Dutch_197]

Changed the O2 sensors this morning, which was actually pretty easy with a flat O2 sensor socket from Snap On.
The O2 sensor were very blackened, I think the original ones, removed codes and test drove. The sputtering between 2000-3000rpm is gone and the engine is much much smoother at low rpms. The engine did throw a code 0325 (knock sensor) but with a quick WD40 spray that code is gone (fingers crossed).
I did have a minor sputter when flooring the throttle at 2000 rpm and I have just found out he engine is vibrating because between 2000-2300 because it runs on 3 cylinders. Below and above that RPM there is no problem. I have recently changed plugs and coils for Valeo units (green tops) and the correct spark OE plugs.

 

[spicer92]

I get a slight vibration at 2300rpm- it sounds like a metal vibrating noise rather than something I feel. I've never thought anything of it tbh!