GW 200 CUP (clubsport->racecar->v2)

[LiamP]

It's a Porsche driver thing, I was left for dust on the straights yesterday at Snetterton but all over them like a fat pigeon on a chip through the twisty bits.

Car's looking really good too!

Cheers, yeah it’s as if they see the fact it’s a Clio and think hmm I am quicker than that, spoke to someone a few years ago who had the same issue so covered his TT in stickers and a massive wing. Apparently it resulted in everyone getting out the way and no more silly overtakes...

 

[LiamP]

Part 1 - Brands Hatch I

Sorry if the following gets a bit detailed, want to use this thread as a record of what I have changed so might get boring

First up was rear discs and brakes, renault original discs/bearings as the old where rusty as hell and lipped also the pads where in a very sorry state. Also upgraded to ds2500 (ds1.11 on the front), took a few attempts as the pads where sticking on the sides of the calliper (need to refurb)



It was then straight to Brands for a day session with Track Obsession on the 10th June, still getting used to them but I think I actually prefer the softer oem pads but I will give it some more time.

Great day where I was consistency getting on the minute mark, struggled with the stock suspension setup on this track as the undulations make things very tricky to get grip/power down. Managed to get some free tuition in however there was a 750mc race meeting that weekend so was being used a testing day which made things interesting!

First day in the clio where temps where around 25, with no air con it gets hot, really hot, hate having the window open as it makes it harder to hear what the engine/brakes/tyres are doing, discs/pads also got hot so need to get a brake cooling setup sorted.



Part 2/3 to follow...

 

[LiamP]

Part 2 - Geo setup

I have been off in June as I take a tax break before returning as a contracting so plenty of time to tinker with the car, so got the following ordered via Nad at NADUK down in Littlehampton (Sussex)

Geo
AST5100 + top mounts with 80/80Nm (track/road springs)
SuperPro Drop Links (adjustable)
SuperPro Front Wishbone Rear Bush Kit
Powerflex Front Arm Front Bush
SuperPro Rear Axle Bush Kit
Pure Motorsport rear shims (camber/toe)
Brakes
HEL Performance Braided Brake Lines
Motul RBF660 Brake Fluid



Did a lot of reading on here and google regarding setups, chatting to Nad we decided that matching the cup racer setup (like many on here) is probably the best place to start and then adjusting based on tyre temps and performance on the track. Obviously the AST's took a while to get delivered, the clio decided that every bolt on the suspension was going to be seized and changing the bushes isn't exactly simple!

Track day booked for the Wednesday and after an initial geo to work out shims needed work started early Tuesday morning, 9pm on Tuesday and the car is back together however front/rear geo is completely off.



At this point I started questioning what the hell I am doing and if I was going to have a drivable car..



4hrs later the car is back on the ground, geo setup, not perfect due to time limitations and running out of shims however it was ready!



Can't recommend Nad enough, attention to detail was next level whilst working on the car till 1am and even staying later as I drive home to make sure there was no knocking/rubbing, just unbelievable really.


Part 3 to follow with geo / track day / tyre temps!

 

[LiamP]

Part 2 continued - Geo

As mentioned the forum was used for geo research with this thread being very helpful, even though the racers used slicks we thought it would be easier to dial down the camber/toe if required after the initial setup.

Final readings here, note the slight difference left/right camber and rear toe due to a mixture of running out of time and shims, decided at 11pm that it shouldn't be too much of an issue due to the clockwise nature of UK tracks and I would be back in a few weeks anyway.



This was all done with me on board to maximise accuracy, ride height was also matched to the racer setup, which is low, probably too low (more to come on this )

We then moved to corner weighting, again with me on board and half a tank of fuel, surprised with the weight tbh at 1266kg I thought it would be more. Minor adjustments to get the cross weight to 50/50, Nad was annoyed that it wasn't exact but considering it was now Wednesday he let it go till next time.




Quick maths:

Cup weight: 1204kg
Mine: 1160kg (minus fuel and me)

So currently looking at a 44kg weight saving from Akra (-6.7kg), Lithium battery (-11kg), AST5100 (?kg) and rear seats (-15kg?) removed.

Was concerned the handling would be a nightmare on the roads with this setup but I was pleasantly surprised at how compliant the AST's are when fully soft (even with the bushes) and having this much camber! Of course I had some fun on the roads back and was really blown away by the difference, the focus ST had about 2degrees but stepping up to 3 is a massive difference! The way you can get the power down out of a corner feels like having an LSD installed.

 

[LiamP]

Part 3 - Brands Hatch II

5hrs and a few coffees later I am at the track, note the upgrade my dad has made in an attempt to keep up with the cup, it hasn't worked and as you can see our setup is starting to look 'all the gear and no idea'



At this point its raining and the track is damp so the PS4's stay on as I do a few sessions to get a feel of the car. Kept the dampers fully soft and started getting stuck in, good group of cars with lots of renaults and only 1/2 straight line heros. Things dry out quickly so the AR1's go on and I started messing with the dampers, ended the day with fully hard rear and 3 clicks from hard front which seamed to suit my driving.

I was concerned about losing the cup characteristics when moving to coils but it's just got sooooo much better. It's probably the corner weighting but you can trail the brake, point the car at the apex and put your foot down, zero understeer and if you want it very controllable oversteer. The end of the day I was probably pushing things too far on the curbs and started to get a feel of bump steer through surtees but again it was controllable.

You can see how low it is now and will now cock a wheel even through the high speed corners







With the plan of optimising the setup and optimising tyre wear I purchased a budget tyre pyrometer from RA going for the dunlop probe, tbh for under £70 it's pretty good. Reading a few guides it seemed the idea is to measure as soon as possible after a lap and get as close to the carcass as possible, this sounds easy but it isn't and the reading I have taken are definitely lower than the actual operating temps (AR1 70-100degrees) however it's better than nothing.

See below for the average of my last 5 sessions, I would ignore the rear centres as they are lower due to the tyre (over inflation issue from a previous day)



Welcome any thoughts on this but it seems the setup is pretty good even though I am running semi-slicks, obviously a balance between tyre wear and performance and its likely the front inners have a high temp due to outside cooling before I can take a reading. Tyres as of yesterday, note that the rears used to be my fronts and visa versa however you can see the difference the left/right camber has made on pickup on the rears.

Front (left|right)



Rear (left|right)



Have since carried out an oil change, glad I did as it wasn't looking great to the point I am going to change every 4 TD's or 1000 miles (was double) I also had a quick check of the suspension and found a mighty hole in both arch wells.



Its caused by the inside edge due to the low height/camber, I have therefore put an order in for some 20/18mm spacers to test out, if I find it impacts handling they will be coming off and the height raised but should be fun to experiment.

 

[Benno]

Personally I wouldn’t bother with spacers and just raise it a smidge, got any photos of it sat stationary? Looks very low in that pic, if you space it out you might risk damaging actual arches rather than arch liner.

 

[R20BTG]

Cup racer doesn’t have arch liners so by setting it at the cup racer ride height you’re going to have interference. Mine is set slightly higher for this reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LiamP]

Hmm I knew it was probably going to cause issues, it’s rubbing on the curved part of the arch so spacers should move it to the deeper part. Hopefully it doesn’t move the problem to the outside edge. To be honest I have been looking for an excuse to test out spacers and plan on doing some on/off tests on the same day to see if they actually make a difference.

This is probably the best photo I have at the moment

 

[LiamP]

Had some time in the evenings this week to get the spacers on, gone with the minimum of 21 front and 18 rear. took me 4hrs to get the studs off and replace with longer Breaking the loctite was easy but getting the studs out was a real pain, even using the double bolt trick and lots of heat it seems I was a bit overzealous when applying especially on the rear (brake heat at the front probably helped) No question that the car looks better filling the arches I just hope it solves the issue.



Today I then got another few hours to finally have a go at copying the 1*2 guys with the corvette brake ducts. Unlike the mk2 there is no handy bolt hole however with just two cable ties I managed to get the following:







I have about inch clearance on full lock even with the arches back although had to cut a small section out. It seems like the offside is slightly different with less space even with the washer bottle out of the way so I had to trim the duct slightly.

The duct is massive so should make a big difference, might do a test on the next track day to compare temps. Entry could do with a 3D printed part as there are gaps but it’s solid and should do the job to start off with, if this survives a few track days I will look to replace the cable ties for a more permanent fixing.

 

[LiamP]

Had a track day yesterday at Goodwood to shake down the spacers/cooling, even with 30 degrees heat the brakes performance was on par or better than when I have been out in sub 20 degrees so very happy, talking to @RSRowe about a modified version of his brake duct kit to get a nice fit at the front as it currently has some gaps.

Originally had plans to run a few sessions with/without spacers and try and measure the impact of the brake cooling but instead bit the bullet and had a morning of tuition with the ex F1 racer Mike Wilds. Easily the best £75 I have spent on the car/me. He has completely changed my approach to driving fast and things that I have been watching/reading finally clicked.

I found that the spacers have had a positive impact to the handling with more feedback and the car feeling a lot more planted mid corner and the back will more than happily spin round if required







Quick clip of my dad hitting a bird, his bumper grill with the undertray flipping out and me shitting myself.

Continued subtle stripping with rear belts and all sound deadening removed, next on the list is buckets / harness / half cage, decided that I need to take safety more seriously!

 

[RSRowe]

I hadn’t even noticed your last post

Will be down working on my own car at the weekend so will make a start measuring up.

See people say spacers are shit all the time on the socials, but I couldn’t tell the difference on mine. That might just be my wank driving tho!

 

[LiamP]

I hadn’t even noticed your last post

Will be down working on my own car at the weekend so will make a start measuring up.

See people say spacers are shit all the time on the socials, but I couldn’t tell the difference on mine. That might just be my wank driving tho!

Haha, based on my limited memory of my degree I think I am probably low enough that the scrub radius is staying negative, I might try and measure it one day.

 

[suj]

Great update, looks like a fun day! Another I've always wanted to do (been with friends driving, but not myself)

Haha, based on my limited memory of my degree I think I am probably low enough that the scrub radius is staying negative, I might try and measure it one day.

Haha I'm glad I'm not alone, I wanted to do this and also correct bump steer and roll centre, it's been soooo long since I've done these calcs that will need some "Google sponsored refreshing"

 

[LiamP]

It’s a good track, not great for Clio’s due to the straights but suits the BMW’s

 

[LiamP]

Less than 1 week till Snetterton and the car looks like this



Currently installing safety devices R020 half cage, harnesses, cobreau seats and supreme mounts, already gone through 4 drill bits. Had the seats installed before starting the cage and the difference in weight compared to the recaros is ridiculous, could really feel it on the track as well so my focus is going to be to try and cancel out the weight of the cage by removing brackets/wiring loom etc. 1100kg dry weight is my target but I want to keep all the plastic trim (for now)



Routine check under the bonnet a few weeks ago and I noticed a nice puddle on the top of the engine, bit of sealant to prevent it occurring again on the washers and 4 new spark plugs..



Luckily I also noticed a tear in my relatively new aux belt so that was also replaced before driving again, no idea how this has happened as I can't see it rubbing on anything so just going to have to keep an eye on it.



Plan is to try and get some time tonight and next week to finish everything, wife is slowly hating this car more and more but I bloody love it

 

[R20BTG]

Do you have a part number for the Corvette brake duct? Looks like a good setup.

 

[LiamP]

Do you have a part number for the Corvette brake duct? Looks like a good setup.

Sure, strongly recommend

Genuine GM Duct Wheel Brake Cylinder 15829067 for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Genuine GM Duct Wheel Brake Cylinder 15829067 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[loader5710]

Interesting read this

 

[LiamP]

Just in case you are all not bored of the Snetterton updates

As per everyone else on here it was a quick rush to get everything finished before Thursday. Roll cage went in fine just took me much longer than I expected, the SD cage bolts into the floor (bottom and rear) as well as into the sill so takes some work to get things lined up, cut and drilled. However once in looks great and is very solid, just required some trimming to the plastic and carpet to get everything back in.

Used this guide for fitting the harness when it comes to angles / best practice, I have the inside d ring slightly too far back but it will do for now. Gone for the cross over due to the distance between seats and bar, then added some foam in-between to stop any movement.







Quick clean and car packed, 4 tyres fit perfectly in the rear and space under the cage for everything else which is ideal.



Snetterton is certainly the most difficult track I have been to, I normally spend some time getting used to the basic lines before focussing on one corner at a time.. With the number of corners on this track that just isn’t possible, ended up being focus on one corner and try not to crash on the next whilst getting out of the way of the suicidal BMW’s!



Went out for the first session with dampers on full hard all round and 24/27psi F/R cold, this was a disaster with lots of understeer regardless of how I drove. Quick chat to @NickD and I bumped the pressures up to try and stop the feeling of rolling over on the front (31/31 hot) but it was obvious the tyres where getting close to EOL. This helped and I was able to get more out of the car on the first part of the track but any corners that involved heavy trail braking where really bad for understeer. It was hard to have any confidence in the car at this point so just focussed on lines/throttle/balance to try and keep the weight where it was needed (probably good practice)



@burrellbloke managed to find a garage at the end so I joined after lunch, went out with Mike Epps (ex Clio cup) for some tuition, jumped in the car and asked if I was one of the Clio lunatics racing round bumper to bumper! @RSRowe … As always this was invaluable and he got me to focus on removing the dead space in the corner between braking and accelerating by not being afraid to brake later and deeper when trail braking. Not natural to me but certainly a game changer in making up a fair chunk of time in a lap.



Chatting to @R27WTF I dropped the dampers on the front 2 clicks and bumped the pressures on the rear (31/34 hot) This helped a lot, it certainly wasn’t perfect but with a bit of hacksawing on the wheel I could get the rear around again.



Really impressed with the brake cooling to the point I was doing 25m+ sessions with no fade/juddering, 8 track days in and I have about 6-7mm left of the ds1.11 so they seem to be lasting well. Will look at remembering to block one side up and take some temperature measurements to see the impact they have next time I am out.

Overall great day and it was great to put faces to cars, invaluable to have so much experience there to chat to and already want to make some upgrades based on what I saw! Already planning another trip up, hopefully in November with TO again.


A few plans in the works, booked into NAD at the end of Sept to get the geo balanced L/R as it isn’t perfect, going to neutralise the toe on the rear slightly and bump the spring rates to 100 giving me 80/100 F/R. I think this should give me a good base to then optimise with pressures and damping rates depending on track. 80/80 is great for fast flowing tracks like Goodwood where you want the car to be stable through the high speed stuff but on slower more technical corners the car just doesn’t spin fast enough.

I will have the corner balancing redone as well so got a few weeks to remove more weight to make the most of this, likely to be all airbags, brackets, rear wiper and loom.

I also picked up a spare set of inlet manifolds from @burrellbloke, already being worked on by MS Custom Engineering for port/flow matching, I will eventually get the engine mapped to make the most of this, probably look at the fitting the V6 box as well.

 

[RSRowe]

I didn’t even think we were being that loony