Rigid collar mod as seen on Masa's thread

[BenW]

just a question regarding these 'rigid collars'.

once you use them and say you unbolt wouldn't they be un-reusable? from the website it seems to imply that the collars will deform when tightened.

You're right to a certain extent. They should still do 90% of their original job when reused though. Think of it like the sump plug washer.

 

[Masa]

Think of it like the sump plug washer.

Right. Spoon people told me that.

 

[Cr00k]

Interesting.

Masa: Could you provide us some dimensions for rear and front "rigid collar" so we could machine it ourselves.

btw: speedhunters.com is one of the best blogs, although it's more focused for JDM market - I'm quite sad, that there is no equal alternative for our cars...

 

[Willis]

Good point about the copyright thing... What I meant to say was; We should see what a nice man at a nice machine shop would have to say about how the part works and show him an example.

Oh Speedhunters is great, you get some right monster projects on there!!!

 

[Willis]

I've found a machine shop.

In need of dimensions...

 

[Foxspeed]

I've found a machine shop.

In need of dimensions...

be nice if someone could supply you with dimentions :thumbsup:

 

[Willis]

It'd save me having to fanny about under the car.

Even if somebody just knew the bolt width & length, then that'd be a big help too...

 

[liam92]

I think the easiest way would be to just measure the hole diameter ect.

Looking at the pictures in masa's thread of the collars, the overall radius looks to be 3 times the radius of the bolt (gives us a good idea as to how wide they stretch the collar) for both the front and rear collars

The fronts had a significantly longer 'bolt' flange on their topside compared to their bottom.

The rears look to have no 'top' or 'bottom' side.

Both the collars look to taper in ever so slightly? Maybe they mighnt be so easy to replicate just looking at the photos/car

 

[BenW]

Potential problem with measuring just one car is that the manufacturing tolerances from one car to the next will mean it may not fit the next car you try them on. However, the problem could be reduced by making sure there's a fairly significant taped on the parts.

 

[Willis]

Potential problem with measuring just one car is that the manufacturing tolerances from one car to the next will mean it may not fit the next car you try them on. However, the problem could be reduced by making sure there's a fairly significant taped on the parts.

That'd be the same problem on every type of car though, Honda, Renault, Bugatti... I wouldn't have thought the tolerances would be so large on a bolt hole!?! If it's a 10mm bolt for example then the hole it's going into would still be -/+ 0.25mm (or whatever the particular tolerance might be) the size of the bolt on every car surely. Good point though, if I can get some dimensions from Masa then I'll wiegh that up against my car and see how much of a difference there is.

 

[Bux]

In case anyone wants to know how they work:

http://www.rigidcollar.com/what-is-rigid-collar.html

Handy video in there

 

[ben_r1]

I think they may be milking the problem at hand abit here. In all my days of cossies, scoobys, evos, and the like i've never heard of this problem before.

Would be cheaper to run a little weld down the subframe and just grind it off if you ever need to remove it.

 

[Willis]

I've never seen anything like it either, that's what's intrigued me!!!

 

[BenW]

That'd be the same problem on every type of car though, Honda, Renault, Bugatti... I wouldn't have thought the tolerances would be so large on a bolt hole!?! If it's a 10mm bolt for example then the hole it's going into would still be -/+ 0.25mm (or whatever the particular tolerance might be) the size of the bolt on every car surely. Good point though, if I can get some dimensions from Masa then I'll wiegh that up against my car and see how much of a difference there is.

Not quite as simple as that I'm afraid! You have to look at much more than the tolerances on the bolt hole, you also have to look at the positioning of the holes in the subframe and the threaded holes in the chassis, these will also have a tolerance on them which actually could be exaggerated if that freedom is not available in the subframe mounts.

Removing this clearance in the holes (by using the rigid collar) is not always a good thing, sometimes its there to allow some movement to account for tolerance stack ups and prevent the subframe being located in the wrong position (Align it using other methods - eg very tightly toleranced tapered pins/holes or using a jig).

These collars will definitely increase the rigidity of the subframe/chassis assembly but the potential problem I see is that because the collars are a rigid piece they don't allow for this freedom in the bolt holes, it forces the bolt holes to be concentric with the threaded chassis holes which will not be in the optimal position (Thats guarenteed, due to manufacturing tolerances). The collars could actually make the 'problem' with the standard setup worse IMO.

I hope some sense can be made of that, very difficult to explain my thinking without diagrams.

 

[Willis]

So basically, the collars could actually make things worse as a downside of everything being stiffer they could cause problems elsewhere? I.E, some movement may well have been intentionally engineered into the subframe assembly to allow it to move to help absorb bumps and jolts etc.?

 

[DanT]

Interesting stuff, on a sidenote, is anyone awear of a company developing uprated suspension bushes for the 197/200?

 

[BenW]

So basically, the collars could actually make things worse as a downside of everything being stiffer they could cause problems elsewhere? I.E, some movement may well have been intentionally engineered into the subframe assembly to allow it to move to help absorb bumps and jolts etc.?

I really mean that the clearance allows the subframe assembly to move during assembly at the factory to ensure it can be perfectly aligned, you don't really want it to move once fitted to the car as it will mess up the geometry.

But, having worked as a design engineer (Automotive industry) I know it is good practise to allow clearance where possible to allow for manufacturing tolerances. If you try to make everything a perfect fit then you're going to cause yourself big problems (I've had to redesign someone else's cock up when they design a product to be tight fits everywhere).

That's the theory from my perspective but if people say these things work then that's the most important thing. But, then again maybe it will work better on some cars than others due to the tolerances making every car different.

 

[Gandy]

Interesting stuff, on a sidenote, is anyone awear of a company developing uprated suspension bushes for the 197/200?

I'm interested in this too...have looked at all of the major companies Powerflex etc...and there doesn't seem to be anything atm!!

 

[dangerdaz]

The distributors have contacted me after i said about the usefullness etc of this mod and thus lack of interest. They have replied and understand where we are coming from and have offered me a full set at cost price of £156 inc vat n delivery.
They believe it is a worthwhile mod (but they would) and i think are keen to prove it works.
I have responded and awaiting confirmation to make sure it includes all the collars..ie front n rear.

 

[BenW]

Cost price!? For that to be cost price they would need to be machined accurate to a couple of microns which I almost guarantee they're not