Petition about clio power figures...

[dangerdaz]

Guys..
Here is a question and the reply posted on 'ask the experts' (renaultsport site)
Fernandez asks
Just wondering why renault publish a power fiqure of 197bhp for the 200 when quite clearly every one who has had one dynoed is well down on power from this fiqure. It seems that most run from 180-187 bhp. Ive even heard of some running lower.

Question 1: Was the engine/map/exhaust the same on the road cars as the test car used to get power fiqures.

Question 2: How many miles did the engine have to get this figure

Question 3: Why dont our engines put out the same BHP, when purchasing the car buyers are led to believe that they are getting x amount of power when in reality the fiqure is much lower, how can this be right??????

Allen responds
Hi, the normal process is that engines are submitted for homologation [after being run in on a engine dynamometer]*with an external authority before claims can be made regarding power, etc.
Also normally when engines are tested for manufacturers they are only tested as the engine alone in a controlled environment [air temp / humidity etc] . Which is very hard to do on rolling roads.
Equally*i think they had 2 different homologations for the 197 and then later for the 200.
*
All of this does not excuse the fact that if all of the customers have the same opinion then something could be wrong.
*
Kind regards

Here is a response to my later similar question (didnt see the earlier one)

dangerdaz asks
Why are all clio 200s well below the power stated by Renault?
Mine has been on 3 rolling roads and all give approx power of 185 rather than that stated by Renault!

Jeremy RUK responds
I don't know why the rolling roads you've been to don't achieve the power output.* Various factors can influence the reading (the ambient temperature, the fuel grade used, the vehicle cooling etc).* The 200 produces 200hp (or 197bhp in imperial measurement).*

Ok..now i dont think ive seen anyone post that their 197/200 gave the quoted power figures.
I feel that this is something that should be highlighted via name and piwer achieved when rr'd. Then when we have a decent amount of names then i will approach RUK with the list.
I feel we have all been short changed in the engine power stakes and feel Renault need to acknowledge it!

 

[dangerdaz]

Clio 200 cup rr'd @ 185hp

 

[GrumpyTwig]

Have the rolling roads been calibrated in any way against a known quantity?

I can't see this going very far it's well known that most cars don't meet the quoted figures, some more some less.

 

[tiababy]

I always thought the claimed figure was the flywheel figure rather then what the car puts down through the wheels.
I'm probably wrong though.

 

[StevoR27]

A waste of time, lots of cars don't make their claimed power, especially n/a.

What they do make is their claimed top speed and 0-60 figures, which is ultimately what the car is suppost to achieve.

The myth about them not making the claimed power can be down to a lot of factors and there are actually plenty of examples that are making close to the power (those people are on this site).

Both my R27 and 200 were well run in and feel easily up to power and I've owned four RS Clio's so I know a fair bit about them

 

[rob_clio197rs]

I always thought the claimed figure was the flywheel figure rather then what the car puts down through the wheels.
I'm probably wrong though.

they are flywheel figures but they never seem to make the claimed output, at the wheel figure will be much lower around the mid to high 150s

 

[Black-hawk]

Renault quote ps figure not bhp.

 

[dangerdaz]

Have the rolling roads been calibrated in any way against a known quantity?

I can't see this going very far it's well known that most cars don't meet the quoted figures, some more some less.

Unless you try you never know!
Both responses suggest that 200 should be the figure..or close too.
NOBODY i know has reached that from standard!
Of course i understand rr's arent the be all/end all for quotes but even recognised tuners agree that the engines do not seem to produce the power.
Read last comment of first response..we get enough people then we can see what they say.
Nowt ventured...nowt gained.

As for most cars not making the power..then they shouldnt quote them. Its manufacturer quote..not a tuning co.
Both replies are from renault reps..
Cannot see a problem with approaching them with findings tbh,rather than do the typical english thing of 'lets not rock the boat.'

 

[BenW]

I would suggest that people also list the rolling road used and engine mileage to give a better picture.

Mine:
Clio 197 Full Fat RR'd at TDF on ~28k miles made 186bhp

Also, it's very difficult to get a flywheel horsepower figure from a rolling road as you're estimating the drivetrain loses and adding them to the wheel horsepower figure (WHP is measured). The only truely accurate way is to connect the crankshaft to a dyno which is obviously impractical.

 

[Foxspeed]

Also, it's very difficult to get a flywheel horsepower figure from a rolling road as you're estimating the drivetrain loses and adding them to the wheel horsepower figure (WHP is measured). The only truely accurate way is to connect the crankshaft to a dyno which is obviously impractical.

exactly !

none of the rr will be like for like so you have no argument over the figures produced

you would have to follow the homologation regs /din/iso standard to compare all engines - not only that the same fuel oil etc etc

 

[Willis]

Clio 197 - May '07 Reg - Aug '10 Tested @ 32,500M = 193.5BHP (Flywheel) on a week old and just set up Dyno Dynamics RR.

Only mod was an ITG Panel Filter. Never been one for chasing BHP but I was happy with the readout...

Not that numbers on a piece of paper mean anything to me on the road though.

*EDIT*

It's a Dastek that they have there, not a Dyno Dynamics, my bad.

 

[Fernandez]

Get mine RR'd each time I have a service, always on the same Dyno Dynamics machine thats about 18 months old, first one was 184bhp, 2nd was 185bhp, last time was 187bhp with ITG and Milltek pipe. Change in weather could explain the variation or the losening of the engine. So many varibles can make a difference.

Like Wills I am happy with the fiqures i get cos i still have a bloody quick car but either way manufacturers including Renault mislead us all when they quote power fiqures that are higher than you realistically get.

 

[daz]

Mine's about 186 I think...I'll check.

But, you have to remember that the engines power output is measured on a dyno, whereas you're comparing the readings taken on a rolling road.

As I understand it the engine(s) are tested on a dyno out of the car and in a controlled environment. You then put that engine in a car, add on the power losses through accessories and the transmission losses (which are caculated) and then get an estimated bhp @ fly reading. This cannot and never will be accurate compared to the dyno results (which Renault state).

 

[N0ddie]

Our 200 was RR'd giving:

1st time on RR @ 2000 miles: Maximum power- engine- 192.8 bhp @ 7,410 rpm

2nd time on same RR @ 11000 miles: Max Power @ engine- 197.9bhp @ 7,213rpm

 

[Brown bear]

Rolling road figures are as much use as a chocolate teapot. They have 2 purposes

1-Before and after showing gains/losses from mods. The absolute figure means nothing, it's the change.

2-Nerdy gimps to boast about in the pub.

Anyone that believes a standard 200 is making 200 (or close to it), is a mug frankly.

 

[Graeme GTR]

What is this goin to achieve? Like previously mentioned the RR is only producing and approx figure. So you dont know what the car is making at the flywheel. Even if Renault did say, "ok, the car doesn't produce 200 ps." then what? What's your goal?

You'll be moaning about the claimed fuel consumption next.

 

[Raptor6767]

Rolling road figures are as much use as a chocolate teapot. They have 2 purposes

1-Before and after showing gains/losses from mods. The absolute figure means nothing, it's the change.

2-Nerdy gimps to boast about in the pub.

Anyone that believes a standard 200 is making 200 (or close to it), is a mug frankly.

:thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:

 

[Paul]

Well from looking at the quoted figures in this thread I cant see that there is much of an argument to take to Renault. On the whole they are within 5% of the quoted figures, I cant see that being an unreasonable tolerance for a mass-produced car, especially considering the differences in each RR.

If they were only producing 150-160bhp I would agree something needed to be done.

The only thing a petition will achieve is the next Clio being called the 'Clio 100' so they are guaranteed to beat it...

 

[PB.200]

Unless Renault start quoting wheel horse power the only way to test against their claim accurately is an engine out job.

Dyno dynamics RR pretty much guess the fly figure, it's an informed guess but what if the drag from the clios box is higher than estimated? That could be why the power figures are low in some cases.

 

[marshall]

I feel a petition about getting Renault to accept the pulling to the left issue would be better...