Non vvt cams, options?

samben

Gold Member
Evening all

I'm looking to run a standalone ecu on my 197 this year, the ecu does not run vvt. Car is a track car

Therefore I'm looking into my non vvt cam options, looking at the catcams website show me plenty of options, however currently the engine internals are still standard.

Anyone had any experience on running the non vvt cams with standard Pistons? I was looking into maybe the 5503433 or 5503431 cams.

Thanks in advance
Sam


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No chance of piston clearance on either 433 or 431 (I'm thinking I might run 431). They are the 404 and 405 equiv's and are pretty big cams. Also you'd probably want to bump CR up a bit running them too, certainly 431's.

I doubt you'll find anyone running them but maybe 432 will be your only option as that is the 403 equiv which do clear. Like the 403 the 432 also has pretty restricted exh cam lift hence I 'think' they might be ok. Email cat.

You could run 2 exh cam pulleys and block up the oil way on a vvt cam - fairly common on the 73x engines and lots of info on it over on cs.net
 
Hi rich. Thanks for the reply

I run 402's already so I'm thinking the 403 equivilant wont be worth it seeing as I'm already outlaying the cash.

Been in touch with cat, their reply was pretty much the same as what you have said, bump up compression but would also not be bad on standard compression.

Also valve piston clearance needs to be checked on all their cams even the mildest ones, which to be fair they would say anyway to cover themselves which I can't blame them for!

Looks like it's a set of forged rods and Pistons then.....


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Wasting your money IMO. False economy to build with cheap rods like PEC, so proper rods and pistons will cost £1500+. When you've invested that in bottom end parts you'd be wise to use proper tagged tri-metal race bearings (not the usual King ones everywhere sells). That requires quite a bit of extra expense to have the block properly line bored and then machine the block and caps for the rebates.

Then when you've put a few k into the bottom end you won't want to keep stock 2-piece valves, and when the head is apart having new valves, valve springs and cams etc (and bear in mind the cams are going to be big hence why you're doing it).... then the head needs flowing also as the exh ports are not big enough for anything more than around 220bhp. So that's a few K on the top end done properly.
At which point you'll want an R3 manifold and if the cams are 'that' big then ITB's...and then all that with management, ARP main caps, ARP head studs, usual engine rebuild shit and presumably labour(?), it's the best part of a 15k engine.

I guess the cheap alternative is PEC rods, Wossners (don't use PEC pistons - it's a mk2 crown shape and is wrong for the mk3 combustion chamber shape- squish bands are wrong), dispense with the rebuild and head stuff etc and chuck something like 433 cams in. Still be a few K though and imo bit of a time bomb.
 
TB Rich has plenty of experience with this engine so take his advice for granted, tbh they are pretty well tuned from factory and cost vs gains aren't really satisfying!
 
Lots of info there thanks!

Why would the pec rods be false economy rich? Surely better than the standards, and if I was wanting to really scream the car I would be needing to look into the cat-cam solid lifter/finger kit?

I suppose this would depend what revs would be needed to really be 'on cam' (depending on what cams are chosen.

The car is going on 45mm Jenveys currently.

I appreciate all this info, I'm learning all the time! [emoji106]



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Also when I say track car, this is the car I use for sprint events so remaining with the NA f4r is my only option, the megane lump would alter my class too much.

Just to cover that base!

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No PEC rods are utter shite to be frank, if you are staying on hyd lifters then I'd personally prefer stock rods with ARP bolts. I've seen so many pictures of failed PEC rods where the cap has failed - they have a counter bore and it leaves a very sharp and weak point on them - compare it to any quality rod and the caps are night and day. I've also been told of oval big and small ends not being that infrequent... imo just wouldn't touch them.
Carrillo, Robson, Saenz, Arrow etc all good rods - gonna be £1k+ though on average.

Regards cat solids, yeah the finger kit is for 8.5k+, but then you have moved in to another league again. You'll need a big valve head for the airflow for those sort of rpms and cams, without then the head will be a choke and so the solid setup will be a big expensive waste. Also big valves require an 84mm bore so it's not really something you can upgrade to later or you'll have massive repeat expense in new pistons and reboring block etc. Those rpms going to 9k should really be on a dry sump setup too. Oh and the crank and rod geometry is terrible for those rpms, so you'd be looking at the 90mm stroke Maxi crank and 150mm rods - again, properly tuning these is NOT modular! As for induction, also need to be 50mm Jenvey setup, no chance a 45mm setup would service the airflow on that spec.
In fact 45mm tbh is imo too small anyway if you're looking at vvt-delete cams and pistons, best off using 48mm.

Who is building it and advising you? F4R tuning should be a holistic approach because essentially the engine when stock is so wrong for high rpm, that unless you define the spec and budget it'll either not deliver or be cost prohibitive to upgrade because it'll involve scraping so much of what you have already bought. - What's the BHP target and budget?

If I had to stab a guess at the most reasonable setup given what you've said, then the 432 cams (403 non-VVT equiv - they'll make peak around 7500rpm) and hope they clear the pistons - if not, use Wossners (and now instead I'd use 433 cams) because at least they have a mk3 crown design. ARP bolts. Port the head (tbh mostly just exhaust port work at this level). Use 48mm Jenveys and along with your ECU will work without VVT etc. Chuck an R3 manifold on (need to mod your system because it is longer and finishes further down the car), maybe a Ktec but of course unproven at higher power levels presently.
The weak points in above
-non tagged bearings, but without expensive rods and valves probably a comfortable omission to make given the cost to do
-2-piece valves, as above nothing hugley expensive to lose other than the Wossners
-oem rods, as above really

If you want to address the 3 weaknesses.....then they need doing as 1 and it is a lot of extra expense.
But it'll give you (hyd lifter exception) everything setup for 8k reliably. So it would allow you to run maybe the 431 or 434 cams. Tbh this is the quandary I have, my feeling is 434's though are going to be too close to an 8k peek and thus the cross over point into a solid profile (not the finger followers, but Cat's solid lifter with lash caps on the valve stems), therefore 431's I reckon will do best on Hyd's.
I wouldn't run 431's without the rods, bearings and valves etc - hence the 432/433 suggestions per last para.

In fact...... why not look at the R3 230cv kit, uses iirc OEM rods but ARP bolts, of course high comp pistons (still a 3-ring design), 230 spec cams (I can tell you from having measured them they are 298/292 with 11mm lift). You'll need a bit of spit and polish on the exh ports but other wise it's the RS version of what I've suggested earlier via the cat/wossner parts.
Only thing is the 230 Cams are designed to run vvt - either buy a better ECU (SCS Delta 800 p'n'p) or do a twin exh pulley mod to it.
@Northloopcup can give you all the info on the 230 kit, plus he's been around mk2's for so long I'm sure he'll know what's involved on putting an exh pulley on a vvt inlet cam.
 
Sorry my previous post was supposed to say 48mm didn't see that it was wrong, so yes it's going on 48mm jenveys.

Mate the amount of information you have is great! Im aiming for the 220 mark so the R3 kit may be an option

Il have to have a look into the exhaust pulley mod, don't know too much about that currently

7.5k is fine for what I'm wanting really, however I still do want a fair bit of reliability built into the engine



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220bhp is not overly ambitious and is comfortably in a nice cost effective bhp/£ bracket. It's about the point the head is ok with too (I've got stock head graph doing 224bhp on 405's for example) - so a lot rides on if 432's clear the pistons or not!! -Because 432's, ITB's/ECU and an exh manifold would do 220bhp.

It also keeps the head and block stock (well slap ARP bolts in because silly not to) - this means if you did have a failure, you can just buy another basic engine and transfer it over and away you go.
I have to be honest, I probably made a bad move doing forged etc, because I've already had one failure which cost me another small fortune to rebuild, and if the worst happens again....:'( !! So for an extra ~20bhp is it worth it......no def not. Yes it's more 'reliable' from a rod out the side or a dropped valve point of view...but it's not invulnerable and it is silly money to rebuild.

Anyway I can't see why they wouldn't clear though because the main specs are almost identical to 403's which do clear, only a few changes to the timing events which will be down to no VVT so a tighter LSA to increase overlap.
I'd take a punt on them, maybe speak to Engine Dynamics to supply them as Andy's always been decent with parts supply. So maybe see if he can broker it with Cat that if they don't clear on a dry/blued engine then you could return them, or swap to 403's which are known to clear. And yep if you had to use 403's then decide on either a diff ECU or run an exh pulley etc.


edit: just to add, that 224bhp on the 405 graph - flat lined for iirc 700rpm at the end, so there was a choke, 405's should be doing 235ish.
 
Like you say looking at the specs there's only 0.05mm difference in exhuast lift.....

I have been talking to engine dynamics recently about various bits and they have been helpful so yeah I may give that a go.

On the 405's what was the choke? The manifold?


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If you look on catcams.com vs catcams.co.uk then the exh lift is the same vs 403/432, weirdly I've seen a lot of differences between the various cam sheets on the .com and .co.uk sites - never more than 'bugger all to make a difference' mind.... but I don't know which is right!?

yeah on that spec it was down to stock exh mani and head. iirc was an r3 manifold was fitted and good gains through the midrange were found, but the head will have remained an issue. That engine threw a rod (PEC funnily enough!) and is going back together as a big valve, short stroke maxi crank etc! Proper competition car though with Sadev.
It was only later when I spoke to Ashford who said the stock heads limit around 220bhp that I thought to myself 'ah yeah bet that was the issue with the 405 cammed engine'.

The one constant though.......... is there is fuck all data/results on these profiles :worried: So deviating from the norm will be a leap of faith somewhat. I've got data from various maps on my engine(s) with 403's, if we ignore figures and look at useful power, then I know they make good power from just after 3500rpm to almost 7500rpm (peak about 7k/ish). So trying to extrapolate what the 432's would be like (given a little more overlap) and I'd say very strong from 4k with almost 7.5k peak (don't shoot me if I'm wrong though!!).

Ha I'd almost stopped thinking about my next cam choice as recently I've been busy investigating data-loggers and other shit I don't need!... now I can't decide what cams I want next again :tearsofjoy:.
 
This is the one main thing I'm finding with the mk3 and the 830. There are limited parts availiable and the parts that are around don't have a lot of data availiable! [emoji849][emoji849]

Trailblazers!! [emoji23]


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Why do you want to delete the vvt out of interest? What are you hoping to gain?

Maxi 230 kit works very well on the vvt but without a good mapper it's almost not road friendly. The vvt control allows you to map in some good usability at different points in the rev range to make it really responsive too.

7.5k? Maxi kit makes maximum hp at 7.9k so you'd need to rev it.

Oil pumps are also shit so need a bit of work to make them effective, although the mk3 engine doesn't suffer the horrific low op that the f4r 7xx engines do.

I made 229.9bhp and 181lb/ft of torque using the maxi kit in mine. That was with a mildly ported 197 head and inlet manifold and pms 1*2 exhaust manifold. Oh and a stock fbw throttle body too.
 
Some hugely knowledgeable info here chaps and i'm reading with interest.

Some of it is beyond me technically and not something i'll ever do. but for future reference for normally aspirated folks looking to push the boundaries there's a wealth of great stuff here.

I've seen a vid of TB's car (Maybe in an earlier guise ?)....do you have any of yours @Northloopcup ? Would love to see it.......
 
Some hugely knowledgeable info here chaps and i'm reading with interest.

Some of it is beyond me technically and not something i'll ever do. but for future reference for normally aspirated folks looking to push the boundaries there's a wealth of great stuff here.

I've seen a vid of TB's car (Maybe in an earlier guise ?)....do you have any of yours @Northloopcup ? Would love to see it.......
Here you go mate:
And this one:
 
Why do you want to delete the vvt out of interest? What are you hoping to gain?

Maxi 230 kit works very well on the vvt but without a good mapper it's almost not road friendly. The vvt control allows you to map in some good usability at different points in the rev range to make it really responsive too.

7.5k? Maxi kit makes maximum hp at 7.9k so you'd need to rev it.

Oil pumps are also shit so need a bit of work to make them effective, although the mk3 engine doesn't suffer the horrific low op that the f4r 7xx engines do.

I made 229.9bhp and 181lb/ft of torque using the maxi kit in mine. That was with a mildly ported 197 head and inlet manifold and pms 1*2 exhaust manifold. Oh and a stock fbw throttle body too.

The car will mainly be a track/competition car.

The vvt delete comes from wanting to remove a part that may be a possible fail point, and the ecu not running it. Maybe it's the wrong way round but I have the ecu now and I stuck with it [emoji106]

What sort of work is needed on the oil pump? Things to make it pump more volume or more efficiently?

Power figures sound good to me!


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