Non vvt cams, options?

[TB Rich]

R3 manifold I got from http://www.arosmarmitte.it/ ~€1000 iirc. You'll need some mild faffing getting it to mate to the centre, or, you could buy the matching system from them which is single tailpipe. Perfect for a competition car to save even more weight. And the manifold is sooo light as it is!
Oh also make sure you have at least a full set of Vibra mounts or it'll more than likely crack, the 2 sections on the manifold are not held with a slip joint and of course you dispense with the flexi. I've ran it with vibra mounts for a couple of years now and fine, but I added in a mk2 style spring joint/donut setup between manifold and system too. I think without that spring joint (or a flexi added)... maybe run Cup Racer solid mounts even.

Mark, as for deleting VVT I'm not 100% yet tbh myself - though Sam of course his ECU wont do PWM I guess. My thoughts were based from a conversation with Pure, who found in there experience ECU's were slow to respond to the sensor feedback and there was often too much tolerance in that feedback, being effected by oil temp and pressure too. Initial research has suggested that once you're talking cams the best part of 300deg then you're pissing in the wind trying to salvage any bottom end and hence most race companies delete it from big builds.
I know Ashford said to me when I stick big cams in then remove the VVT, but that was based on me using the big custom race cams - I won't be doing those so I do need to re-visit that conversation with him for sure in the new year. Also I will speak to SC and talk numbers on the ECU, make sure it's up to snuff. - Actually I'll see them at Autosport and ask them.

Shuv - nope no vid's on the new engine, must get some! It is relishing the cold air right now

 

[Northloopcup]

The car will mainly be a track/competition car.

The vvt delete comes from wanting to remove a part that may be a possible fail point, and the ecu not running it. Maybe it's the wrong way round but I have the ecu now and I stuck with it [emoji106]

What sort of work is needed on the oil pump? Things to make it pump more volume or more efficiently?

Power figures sound good to me!


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Well in a comp car I can understand, but keep in mind that a highly strung motor will need regular attention anyway.

The vvt is actually reliable on these engines as well, so I'd keep it and change to an ecu that will run it.

Oil pump requires the casting cleaning up, closing tolerances and opening the oil pick up pipe up.

 

[samben]

The s40 dta I have will run vetec, but not vvt, so unless there is a way to make our vvt act like vtec then that's the limits of the ecu.

I think I calculated that by the time I had done the belts and dephaser which the car needs, it didn't work out much more to convert to verniers..... starting to think that's not so great now lol

Think the general idea was just to Simplify things completely for less potential issues on race days.


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[samben]

Rich il have a look at the link cheers, Currently running the ktec mounts, which I believe are basically vibra jobbies. Looking into the cup racer gearbox mount currently... mainly because it looks nicer.... [emoji16][emoji16]


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[Northloopcup]

The s40 dta I have will run vetec, but not vvt, so unless there is a way to make our vvt act like vtec then that's the limits of the ecu.

I think I calculated that by the time I had done the belts and dephaser which the car needs, it didn't work out much more to convert to verniers..... starting to think that's not so great now lol

Think the general idea was just to Simplify things completely for less potential issues on race days.


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Well when you make an n/a engine work harder, you'll need to give it more attention mate. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.

The R3 maxi kit is designed for a certain amount of stage km's before it's time for a strip down. You'll need to do a compression test to make sure the compression ratio hasn't dropped, check the bearing clearances, and potentially fit a new set of rocker fingers as these do fail when the rpm is upped.

Go into your project with a very open mind mate.

 

[Northloopcup]

R3 manifold I got from http://www.arosmarmitte.it/ ~€1000 iirc. You'll need some mild faffing getting it to mate to the centre, or, you could buy the matching system from them which is single tailpipe. Perfect for a competition car to save even more weight. And the manifold is sooo light as it is!
Oh also make sure you have at least a full set of Vibra mounts or it'll more than likely crack, the 2 sections on the manifold are not held with a slip joint and of course you dispense with the flexi. I've ran it with vibra mounts for a couple of years now and fine, but I added in a mk2 style spring joint/donut setup between manifold and system too. I think without that spring joint (or a flexi added)... maybe run Cup Racer solid mounts even.

Mark, as for deleting VVT I'm not 100% yet tbh myself - though Sam of course his ECU wont do PWM I guess. My thoughts were based from a conversation with Pure, who found in there experience ECU's were slow to respond to the sensor feedback and there was often too much tolerance in that feedback, being effected by oil temp and pressure too. Initial research has suggested that once you're talking cams the best part of 300deg then you're pissing in the wind trying to salvage any bottom end and hence most race companies delete it from big builds.
I know Ashford said to me when I stick big cams in then remove the VVT, but that was based on me using the big custom race cams - I won't be doing those so I do need to re-visit that conversation with him for sure in the new year. Also I will speak to SC and talk numbers on the ECU, make sure it's up to snuff. - Actually I'll see them at Autosport and ask them.

Shuv - nope no vid's on the new engine, must get some! It is relishing the cold air right now

Keep in mind that their experience is with the wank oil pressure f4r 7 series engine mate. I'm not saying that oil pressure and temperature don't have an effect, and that ecu response isn't up there as a contributing factor though.

I spent a long time pissing about finding the cause of the low op issues, and whilst we never found a cast iron reason, we did find A LOT of questionable areas.

@dynodan whats the ecu response times on the likes of a syvecs, or any of the other top end ecu's?

 

[TB Rich]

Another problem with using a DTA S40 on the 830 engine is you'll need to ditch your fully sequential coil on plug setup. Tbh, I don't think it mean all that much in the real world - but it'll be added bits to source an old coil pack and leads etc.

You need an S60 to get coil on plug full sequential, the S40 hasn't enough drivers I believe.

 

[Northloopcup]

Another problem with using a DTA S40 on the 830 engine is you'll need to ditch your fully sequential coil on plug setup. Tbh, I don't think it mean all that much in the real world - but it'll be added bits to source an old coil pack and leads etc.

You need an S60 to get coil on plug full sequential, the S40 hasn't enough drivers I believe.

I ran coil on plug with the gen90 on mine mate. The standard 197 isn't a fully sequential setup, it's the same as a 1*2!

 

[TB Rich]

Keep in mind that their experience is with the wank oil pressure f4r 7 series engine mate. I'm not saying that oil pressure and temperature don't have an effect, and that ecu response isn't up there as a contributing factor though.

I spent a long time pissing about finding the cause of the low op issues, and whilst we never found a cast iron reason, we did find A LOT of questionable areas.

@dynodan whats the ecu response times on the likes of a syvecs, or any of the other top end ecu's?

yeah fair point mate, 830 does better for sure on oil pressure. Got me thinking about just running 405's now :\

did you ever solve your issue with overheating the oil from too much pressure (was that the cause?)

 

[Chris]

Just spent 20 minutes reading through Rich's posts, blown away with his knowledge of these cars engines and tuning them!

Here you go mate:

And this one:

That ring vid is great, shame you didnt have a camera in the car, bet the poor guy was upset not being able to get away from a little clio in an M4 lmao!

 

[Northloopcup]

yeah fair point mate, 830 does better for sure on oil pressure. Got me thinking about just running 405's now :\

did you ever solve your issue with overheating the oil from too much pressure (was that the cause?)

Yeah sorted that with a bigger laminova mate. If I'd ran a better rad it would've been lower still. I was seeing 116/120 degrees at full chat on the ring, which I was happy with. The oil pressure was sorted by removing the shims from the oil pump! Lol!

 

[Northloopcup]

Just spent 20 minutes reading through Rich's posts, blown away with his knowledge of these cars engines and tuning them!



That ring vid is great, shame you didnt have a camera in the car, bet the poor guy was upset not being able to get away from a little clio in an M4 lmao!

I have in-car footage as well mate, just never uploaded any of it as the traffic that weekend made for wank laps in terms of times.

Wasn't a good weekend all round tbh. Finished off with a 2.5k recovery bill because it shat a driveshaft twice, or the gearbox, or anything else! I've never actually found a reason for the failure and the car has been split now and replaced with an AG 200.

 

[sevenfourate]

I have in-car footage as well mate, just never uploaded any of it as the traffic that weekend made for wank laps in terms of times.

Wasn't a good weekend all round tbh. Finished off with a 2.5k recovery bill because it shat a driveshaft twice, or the gearbox, or anything else! I've never actually found a reason for the failure and the car has been split now and replaced with an AG 200.

I'd LOVE to see some more track footage sometime. And i'm damned sure im not alone. We're not expecting to see the 7 minute barrier broken

Just harassing and embarrassing some much more serious metal would more than suffice

 

[TB Rich]

Yeah sorted that with a bigger laminova mate. If I'd ran a better rad it would've been lower still. I was seeing 116/120 degrees at full chat on the ring, which I was happy with. The oil pressure was sorted by removing the shims from the oil pump! Lol!

Nice, perfect temp range full chat, look nice kit those Laminovas. I saw 120 at Bedford with the stock modine.

 

[Chris]

I'd LOVE to see some more track footage sometime. And i'm damned sure im not alone. We're not expecting to see the 7 minute barrier broken

Just harassing and embarrassing some much more serious metal would more than suffice

You are certainly not alone!

Any plans for the 200 then @Northloopcup keeping it standard? I do recall reading you got a bit low with the project before finishing the 172? Or am I mistaken there.

 

[Northloopcup]

I'd LOVE to see some more track footage sometime. And i'm damned sure im not alone. We're not expecting to see the 7 minute barrier broken

Just harassing and embarrassing some much more serious metal would more than suffice

I'll upload them when I've got a bit of time free mate. Have you seen the 8:31 with a standard 172 engine?

I should've filmed the Friday lap as that turned out to be the best lap I got in over the weekend. After a 2yr break, stiffer suspension and 230bhp I was back to break the 8:31.

Everything was looking so so good after that shakedown on Friday - I went straight into the 8:40's and I wasn't even pushing, with a lot more left in the tank. Alas, it wasn't to be.

Anyway I'm waffling! Sorry for going off topic.

 

[Northloopcup]

You are certainly not alone!

Any plans for the 200 then @Northloopcup keeping it standard? I do recall reading you got a bit low with the project before finishing the 172? Or am I mistaken there.

Well I intend on keeping the 200 as an enjoyable car tbh. It's got a toyo manifold on it currently and I want to fit an akra, so I've sourced a standard exhaust manifold that needs flexis doing. Reason being I cba with warning lights or having them mapped out! Lol! The cup had a bent mot essentially and I don't want to go through the same thing with the 200.

I'll consider a boost conversion, but I'm considering keeping it as is in the hope that the AG's will be worth a bit in the future. It certainly won't end up as wild as the cup did mate.

 

[samben]

Not an issue at all! I'm still trying to absorb all the info that has been dished out and trying to work out where to go from here! [emoji15][emoji23]


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[Northloopcup]

Nice, perfect temp range full chat, look nice kit those Laminovas. I saw 120 at Bedford with the stock modine.

Yeah myself and bigash were very pleased with the oil temps mate.

@Chris yes mate, I got bored of building the cup! Should've bought the s1000rr! Lol! After the ring trip, I'd properly had enough!

 

[sevenfourate]

I'll upload them when I've got a bit of time free mate. Have you seen the 8:31 with a standard 172 engine?

I should've filmed the Friday lap as that turned out to be the best lap I got in over the weekend. After a 2yr break, stiffer suspension and 230bhp I was back to break the 8:31.

Everything was looking so so good after that shakedown on Friday - I went straight into the 8:40's and I wasn't even pushing, with a lot more left in the tank. Alas, it wasn't to be.

Anyway I'm waffling! Sorry for going off topic.

Dont be sorry at all - completely on Clio-topic.

And so many of us love to see you guys pushing the boundaries. In so many ways.......