Just a little more power please...

[Aford197]

Rich, what do you need to get to 220, what else comes with high comp pistons?

 

[Stephenvenning]

Rich, what do you need to get to 220, what else comes with high comp pistons?

Headwork, solid lifters, inconel and stainless valves, cat cam springs I would reckon. Serious money :O

 

[TB Rich]

Nah 402's will top out at 220bhp and about 7.5k revs. So you can stick with std rods, std valve springs, std valves and std lifters. Bacially a drop in cam as many on here run, but in a std engine and exh mani you highly likely wouldnt get up to 220bhp though. I just need a full rebuild on top because my engines v.poorly right now, so given the overbore needed makes sense to stick in pistons.
I'm planning to run above standard spec: arp rod bolts, forged pistons, port matched head to R3 exh manifold, port matched inlet, induction (probably ktec) and of course remap (also steel light flywheel while it's all apart but thats not for power). That'll be 220bhp genuine and because of the forgies with nice high comp ratio, a nice useable amount of extra torque too compared to normal. Should go well.

If you want a bit more power then you need 403 cams, which above what I'm going for only 'need' valve springs, however,,,, to ensure good reliability I would also want to use single piece valves and probably rods too because you'll be up at 8k. So those 3 bits add up to an extra say 1k. So even though 403s could give another 10bhp and I'll have the pistons/clearance to run them, I think all the other bits to keep it reliable pushes the cost a bit much. - Also bare in mind hyd lifters are really at their limit at here and frequent 8k is going to make them fail.
Beyond that - a solid lifter engine is another world of cost and an aggressive solid profile cam would need ITB's to give a decent idle, which means standalone, hence the another world of cost!!

403's and above will make it more peeky too, I also read that 403's might benifit from a VVT delete, starts to get beyond what I want at that point. tbh I just want a solid and reliable engine, forged pistons are a bit of overkill but as mentioned the torque means it should be a cut above the typical cam'd 200 engine, also hoping that R3 mani will prove its worth.

Not a done deal yet all this, but I've pretty much ruled out swapping to an E92 M3 now (too much to spend on the house this year), just waiting to hear back from the engine place, but we're talking north of £4k!

 

[TB Rich]

oh that cost includes removing and reinstalling engine, mapping, new clutch and fly etc! not just the engine build! hence why drawing a line at 402's!!

 

[Raptor6767]

I'm trying to reach ~220bhp (remeber - we don't have access to the same rollers - I'm looking for an extra 10-15bhp with the cams and the new remap) with the 402's in the week or two.

Headwork, solid lifters, inconel and stainless valves, cat cam springs I would reckon. Serious money :O

No need for all of that.

 

[MikeLYR27]

Nah 402's will top out at 220bhp and about 7.5k revs. So you can stick with std rods, std valve springs, std valves and std lifters. Bacially a drop in cam as many on here run, but in a std engine and exh mani you highly likely wouldnt get up to 220bhp though. I just need a full rebuild on top because my engines v.poorly right now, so given the overbore needed makes sense to stick in pistons.
I'm planning to run above standard spec: arp rod bolts, forged pistons, port matched head to R3 exh manifold, port matched inlet, induction (probably ktec) and of course remap (also steel light flywheel while it's all apart but thats not for power). That'll be 220bhp genuine and because of the forgies with nice high comp ratio, a nice useable amount of extra torque too compared to normal. Should go well.

If you want a bit more power then you need 403 cams, which above what I'm going for only 'need' valve springs, however,,,, to ensure good reliability I would also want to use single piece valves and probably rods too because you'll be up at 8k. So those 3 bits add up to an extra say 1k. So even though 403s could give another 10bhp and I'll have the pistons/clearance to run them, I think all the other bits to keep it reliable pushes the cost a bit much. - Also bare in mind hyd lifters are really at their limit at here and frequent 8k is going to make them fail.
Beyond that - a solid lifter engine is another world of cost and an aggressive solid profile cam would need ITB's to give a decent idle, which means standalone, hence the another world of cost!!

403's and above will make it more peeky too, I also read that 403's might benifit from a VVT delete, starts to get beyond what I want at that point. tbh I just want a solid and reliable engine, forged pistons are a bit of overkill but as mentioned the torque means it should be a cut above the typical cam'd 200 engine, also hoping that R3 mani will prove its worth.

Not a done deal yet all this, but I've pretty much ruled out swapping to an E92 M3 now (too much to spend on the house this year), just waiting to hear back from the engine place, but we're talking north of £4k!

If you want my advice mate, Id go for 1 piece valves and uprated springs if your doing that build. The car will rev to 7.8k. but will be more prone to bouncing. I had to get mine re done as i wasnt informed. You wont need solid lifters unless your going over 8k+, on just cams its a waste. And unless its an out and out race car, to be fair you wont be at that threshold enough. Another good cam to look at is Schrick, mine were great, power never let up!

Sounds like a good build tho mate bet it will be great fun!

 

[Stephenvenning]

Supertech valves are not one piece btw. The weld is just further up th valve stem away from the heat

 

[TB Rich]

Mike, if I fit double springs and single piece valves, might as well do rods, might as well fit 403's, etc! They all go hand in hand, but that's another £750ish (springs £126, forged valves £311 more, rods are on a package deal with springs, I think about £2-300 more), but will compromise the longetivity of the lifters and general increased wear from in the valve train. The timing and VVT delete on them concerns me too, I want the engine to be tractable.
I haven't seen anywhere say that 402's need uprated springs, so if rev's are going to be 7500, maybe limiter at 7750 it should all be fine. I ran my old ITB'd engine on hyd lifters to 7.8k as that was the limit, it seems a generally accepted top limit for hyd's regardless of engine.

mmm I'll have a think about them all actually, it's only another £750!!! lol

 

[MikeLYR27]

Fair enough mate. Could of been coz I had a crap map, but I got valve bounce and bent a valve. You would get away with standard valves, but as the engine is apart I would update the springs. just for peace of mind.

 

[Stephenvenning]

Cat cam springs are really good quality, just installed them in my build

 

[TB Rich]

so springs look like a good thing for not much cash, cat's dont look like double items so shouldn't be too harsh on the valve train. Supertec's are double springs but way more expensive too.

looks like valves have 3 choices, standard, supertec (2 piece but higher weld), and forged stainless/iconel???

Rod's still reckon overkill for less than 8k. I think they would be PEC which I've always thought of as a bit cheap and nasty, the PEC pistons however are designed and made by Supertec which although I've never heard of before getting into Renaults, seem to have a decent rep??

 

[Stephenvenning]

Supertech valves are inconel exhausts and nitrided stainless inlets. As far as I'm aware there are no single piece off the shelf valves out there. They would have to be custom made which is big bucks.

 

[Yiannis197]

Rich do you know what caused that damage to your engine? What was the mileage?

 

[Foxspeed]

if I was doing a n/a engine on the f4r I would be changing the rods....

as for the valve train thinks its good for over 8000rpm - mine was limited to just short of 7900 and it still felt like it wanted more!

we have had issues at work with after market "standard" replacement valves so have been advising customer to use "genuine" ones but you still hear
of the odd valve dropping so better "competition" valves are a nice safety addition

 

[TB Rich]

Rich do you know what caused that damage to your engine? What was the mileage?

Mileage was 28k, damage was from running lean for 4 days with the R3 exh manifold fitted. Thought it would be ok, I mean it's only an exh mani change but the ECU obvioulsy couldn't adust for the extra fuel so it ran lean and detonated itself.

Supertech valves are inconel exhausts and nitrided stainless inlets. As far as I'm aware there are no single piece off the shelf valves out there. They would have to be custom made which is big bucks.

These say they are single piece forged valves. The supertec higher welded ones are about £300ish I think arn't they, so these look like proper jobs?
http://www.engine-dynamics.com/Engi...atedForgedStainlessSteelandIconelValveSet.asp

if I was doing a n/a engine on the f4r I would be changing the rods....

as for the valve train thinks its good for over 8000rpm - mine was limited to just short of 7900 and it still felt like it wanted more!

we have had issues at work with after market "standard" replacement valves so have been advising customer to use "genuine" ones but you still hear
of the odd valve dropping so better "competition" valves are a nice safety addition

It does seem like it might be best to go the whole way, rods, 1-piece valves and springs then use 403's. Lot of dosh, but then the car is worth 7k at WeBuyAnyCar as it is, what else would I buy with 12k? Nothing frankly as I need 4 seats. Clio provides drama in spades with the exhaust config right now!! Would take another 10k on top of the 5k to get to E92 territory but I dont want that financial commitment right now.

In for a penny, in for a pound as they say!! Makes it ripe for when Ktec release the Gen128 and bosh on a set of ITB's! lol!!

 

[TB Rich]

The most dissapointing thing is the fact I will never know what gains fitting the R3 manifold would have potentially yeilded. Best part of £1600 to get it on and fitted and for it to repay me by litteraly shafting the engine!!

 

[Raptor6767]

Mileage was 28k, damage was from running lean for 4 days with the R3 exh manifold fitted. Thought it would be ok, I mean it's only an exh mani change but the ECU obvioulsy couldn't adust for the extra fuel so it ran lean and detonated itself.

If you haven't driven it hard and did some serious mileage on it. It shouldn't have blown.

Clio has a knock detector it should have had the car put in safe mode if/when detonating for 4 days.

IMO.

 

[TB Rich]

Well it made 193bhp the week before at Surrery Rolling Road which is known to be accurate (enough), if this was a long set issue then it would have shown up then and not produced good power for a stock engine. The last comp test showed it's about 160psi now, it feels so slow at the top end too now that no question this has happened since the fitting

 

[Trophymad]

Where you get the r3 exhaust from any pics? As this is what am looking at getting

 

[TB Rich]

Where you get the r3 exhaust from any pics? As this is what am looking at getting

Got it from Aros in Italy, 1000euros. Then need to use either a flexi or a sprung front joint to reduce the chance of it cracking - so budget a couple of hundred, plus you'll need a sports cat (unless you go illegal and decat), again abother few hundred there.