Help: Why is the 197 so twitchy under braking?

Twitch under braking from your 197: Yes or No

  • 197 Full Fat - YES

    Votes: 16 28.6%
  • 197 Full Fat - NO

    Votes: 15 26.8%
  • 197 Cup - YES

    Votes: 7 12.5%
  • 197 Cup - NO

    Votes: 10 17.9%
  • 197 Lowered/Coilovers - YES

    Votes: 3 5.4%
  • 197 Lowered/Coilovers - NO

    Votes: 5 8.9%

  • Total voters
    56
Woody, my R27 is exactly the same on all road surfaces and also up until i got all four tyres changed i was also getting a lot of vibration through the steering wheel under heavy breaking.

Was wanting to know if it was normal for the back end to twitch.
 
I've never found mine twitchy, and I've done many miles of hard braking. As Warren suggested, get everything checked out. Will be a weapon with the KW's on! :smile:

Cant wait to get them on, the guy is away on hols for a while so I'm having to wait, it's killing me!
 
Just found this....Car Magazine (http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/211096/mini_cooper_s_works_v_renault_clio_197_r27.html)

"the R27 has been lowered by 7mm compared with the stock 197, while the springs have been stiffened by 27 per cent and 30 per cent front and rear respectively.

.....The MacPherson struts also have a 10 per cent increase in bending stiffness combined with more flexible bump- stops to increase stability under braking"

(http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...nmt=RE: Mini Cooper S v Renaultsport Clio 197)

"The stiffly set up torsion beam rear suspension is anything but forgiving. Even with the ESP switched on, and half a throttle opening to steady the chassis’ balance, the back can step out of line. Under hard braking it’s worse still, and lifting-off the throttle mid-bend is something you won’t repeat after your first trouser-troubling moment"
 
After reading that, i've added a poll. It'll be interesting to see whether the suspension and mcpherson struts really do have a huge effect between FF, Cup and Modded owners!!
 
It's a characteristic of a fast FWD chassis.

If you want a FWD to go around corners, then you make the back end as loose as possible and keep all the weight/grip over the front wheels, as these are doing the turning and accelerating - you want as much grip as you can get here. The arse pretty much slides around behind the car as you drag it around by the front wheels.

My Golf was what people call 'planted', as a consequence when steaming into a corner on trail braking it'd push the nose wide in safety understeer mode. Basically the car was set up with more camber on the back than front and a bit of toe in to keep it tracking in a straight line... compare this to a 197/200 and you'll find it is the opposite, stood up and parallel at a guess with a stiffer rear ARB action than front. I changed the geo & ARBs on the Golf to make it like a 197/200 as it is far more rewarding to drive fast and on the track, you just have to adapt your driving style to suit. It's un-nerving at first and you have to learn to keep your foot in rather than instinctively lifting, but you get used to it.

Seriously, get some track tuition at somewhere like Bedford where you're not going to run off and learn to explore the car's handing. Once you've got the hang of swinging the arse around, you'll never want a 'planted' FWD again.
 
I have had the 'lightness' and 'wobble' a couple of times but only when I have been caught of guard so to speak i.e. if some muppet has pulled out in front of me when they really should have noticed a bright yellow car steaming towards them! All other times when I have been pressing on it has been super stable as I know how it handles and what to expect.
 
Interesting read mike, I know very little when it comes to cars and as you said it's just getting used to it I guess, but i'll still check things over and get the brake fluid changed for sure.

All i've driven before was a Mk3 1.8 Golf, Audi A4 2.0 and Merc C180k so all have been very planted, other than some rear wheel fun from the Merc!

It was just the fact that i've never had to hammer down the brake like that before in the clio and the twitch caught me off guard and left me feeling a little uneasy. After taking her out today even though it was still light at the back, I sort of understood how to control it. I'm no racing driver and tuition would definitely do no harm!!
 
It's a characteristic of a fast FWD chassis.

If you want a FWD to go around corners, then you make the back end as loose as possible and keep all the weight/grip over the front wheels, as these are doing the turning and accelerating - you want as much grip as you can get here. The arse pretty much slides around behind the car as you drag it around by the front wheels.

My Golf was what people call 'planted', as a consequence when steaming into a corner on trail braking it'd push the nose wide in safety understeer mode. Basically the car was set up with more camber on the back than front and a bit of toe in to keep it tracking in a straight line... compare this to a 197/200 and you'll find it is the opposite, stood up and parallel at a guess with a stiffer rear ARB action than front. I changed the geo & ARBs on the Golf to make it like a 197/200 as it is far more rewarding to drive fast and on the track, you just have to adapt your driving style to suit. It's un-nerving at first and you have to learn to keep your foot in rather than instinctively lifting, but you get used to it.

Seriously, get some track tuition at somewhere like Bedford where you're not going to run off and learn to explore the car's handing. Once you've got the hang of swinging the arse around, you'll never want a 'planted' FWD again.

I don't think I agree "completely" with your reasoning tbh.

The mk1s never used to wag their tail for a start and certainly didn't rely on the rear giving up "grip". Instead they'd pitch up onto the outer rear, but still have enough front end bite to get you round, but then there was a lot more flex and give in the chassis than a mk3.

I've also driven 306 Rallye/Xsara VTS which is different again. Plenty of front end bite again, but this time the rear feels a little more planted, 'til that rear steer kicks in. The first time it did I thought the back had stepped out but then it sort of catches again and squats and grips.

106 GTI was a totally different beast to the 106 Rallye and of all the FWD cars I've driven it had the most 4-square planted approach. But yet again it never wanted to wash wide.

The only reason your Golf would've is because, and no offence intended here, it's a Golf and I'm sorry but the handling isn't anything like as good as many of the best Frenchies. VAG's tendency has always been for an understeery setup.

None of the above though is any excuse for the swaying rear of the 197s under heavy braking in a straight line.
 
Only thing I would suggest/might try myself is a back to back test with the traction control on and then again with it off if it tracks straight with the TC off you know it is just that which causes it. Its a simple test but should really provide the answers.
 
I'll leave you to find the results then lol, I wont be taking mine off untill i've had it all checked over for my own peace of mind, otherwise I might end up upside down in a hedge or ditch haha! :smiley:
 
I don't think I agree "completely" with your reasoning tbh.

The mk1s never used to wag their tail for a start and certainly didn't rely on the rear giving up "grip". Instead they'd pitch up onto the outer rear, but still have enough front end bite to get you round, but then there was a lot more flex and give in the chassis than a mk3.

I've also driven 306 Rallye/Xsara VTS which is different again. Plenty of front end bite again, but this time the rear feels a little more planted, 'til that rear steer kicks in. The first time it did I thought the back had stepped out but then it sort of catches again and squats and grips.

106 GTI was a totally different beast to the 106 Rallye and of all the FWD cars I've driven it had the most 4-square planted approach. But yet again it never wanted to wash wide.

The only reason your Golf would've is because, and no offence intended here, it's a Golf and I'm sorry but the handling isn't anything like as good as many of the best Frenchies. VAG's tendency has always been for an understeery setup.

None of the above though is any excuse for the swaying rear of the 197s under heavy braking in a straight line.

You're talking many variations, weights and generations pre & post ABS/ESP of a basic formula there though, so you'd expect differences with the amount of weight hanging over the arse and stiffness of chassis, amongst many other things.

French clutter has always been exceptional in terms of handling, sometimes a little on the extreme like a 205, but even its sibling the 309 was a completely different animal despite sharing a common DNA.

No offence on the Golf either, I didn't design the thing so why take it personally! The MKI and MKII were very 'French' in their style, the III and IV were absolute pigs that had a cheek carrying the name. The V with multilink rear is absolutely neutral unless you drive like a spaz.. so steam in and it is hard to swing the arse to correct understeer with a lift, there's too much rear grip. With a few tweaks to 'French' it, it is a very capable car, it's just heavy and needs a quicker rack.

French cars lift off oversteer for fun, they build them that way, and I like them all the more for it hence me buying one. The stiffer the chassis, and I expect the 197/200 is very stiff, it's snappier but should be linear and controllable if you're aware of it... sloppy and a beamed rear kinda bounces as it goes through varying toe, which worries some.

My Golf will do a flat 2 minute lap of Oulton on road tyres, remapped gives similar power:weight of the Clio. I'm willing the Clio on to do even faster and I think it can - so it'll be a good measure between the two for me.

My point was basically either learn to drive with it or alter weight dist & geo to engineer it out of the chassis and make it more planted.

Best guess on his problem - ESP. Back end goes very light, rear tyres lose grip with tarmac, ABS/ESP tries to sort it out and gives a little shimmy as it sends braking force adaptation around all 4 to stabilise the car.
 
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Oh, and the fat arsed old girl still tripods, there's some MKI in there somewhere! :thumbsup:

golf1794.jpg
 
Ye has happened to me once or twice and it always makes me **** my self, just feels like you are going to spin out.

Only happens if you leave it very late to stop and slam them on, I don't think it sways to much just feels like it does.

Just the fact you are asking to car to go from 60+ to 0 in a matter of yards before a roundabout or junction.
 
I think after all that we agree then! :smile:

The mk1 Clio is my bag tbh, and that would get light but it telegraphed everything it was doing so well, it was almost like time slowed down.

I guess with the mk3 being so stiff by comparison, tied with much lower profile tyres and a bigger contact patch, things are a little more "edgey" at the edge.

I'll try the EBD/ESP thing next week though when I get chance.
 
Ahh, I'd take the credit but to be honest it's a fair bit of instruction around there and a flattering car that doesn't mind being thrown around like a rag doll by a ham fisted oaf, The Stig I am not!

Oh, on the ESP or whatever - on mine you can't properly turn it off, you can dick about with it all day long with it off and get it really out of shape, but touch the brake with it sideways and it comes back to life and will try and save you. Is the Clio the same?
 
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No idea as I've never had it anywhere I'd want to have it sideways! But there's the old rumour about holding the button down until the message blinks off actually turns it fully off. Although I don't know if that was proven to be BS or not.

On the laptime, a nutter I know with a Williams that's definitely a very quick one, can only get round in c2.10 with 2 people on board, so 2mins is certainly going some.
 
Ahh, virtually every straight of Oulton you can quickly see 3 figures in the Golf and most of the corners are high up 3rd gear, which buys you a lot of time around there, 320lbft pulls you up the hills with ease.. it really suited big power circuits.

A passenger is a lot of added weight in something so light with little torque, I'd bet the clio's cornering speed was pretty much the same, prehaps even a little higher. Whilst I'm running away on straights, his Clio would murder mine at somewhere twisty like Anglesey, low weight really helps you carry speed around there.

In terms of cornering capability, it'd had a lot done with a very good race prepper doing the weighting and set up. Added caster & camber, ARBs, coilovers, big brakes etc etc... I wouldn't say it was a typical Golf to measure against.
 
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Know what u mean about the rear lifting. I swear the thing is just on the front wheels sometimes. I have had the slight swaying too but doesn't feel unstable
Be interested to see if the esp makes any difference u have to really stab them to get abs on in my experience. I have a cup chassis btw