Gordan the Gordini

[TB Rich]

Don't listen to the comments about what you could have, it's what you want that matters. And the M3 comment - sure you could have a decent E46 M3 or a v.ropey high mileage E92 M3 for the price of a 200 and a turbo conversion - but you probably won't be able to afford to run them!

I wouldn't turbo the stock engine though, for the simple reason I wouldn't want to put that much power through the ****ty TL4 gearbox. They grenade themselves easily enough on standard power and torque! If you want boost I think I'd Meg it so you can use the Meg box. Granted I've not looked into to it in detail, but I'm making the assumption the Meg box is better, heck it certianly ain't going to be worse!

 

[Kazumz]

Don't listen to the comments about what you could have, it's what you want that matters. And the M3 comment - sure you could have a decent E46 M3 or a v.ropey high mileage E92 M3 for the price of a 200 and a turbo conversion - but you probably won't be able to afford to run them!

I wouldn't turbo the stock engine though, for the simple reason I wouldn't want to put that much power through the ****ty TL4 gearbox. They grenade themselves easily enough on standard power and torque! If you want boost I think I'd Meg it so you can use the Meg box. Granted I've not looked into to it in detail, but I'm making the assumption the Meg box is better, heck it certianly ain't going to be worse!

Could you Forge the F4R and run a Meg Box?

Reason being, the engine has just passed 20k and is solid, I'm not a fan of putting someone elses engine in the car as silly as it sounds, I know my engine has been treated right. By forging something I know that works, rather than buying a meg engine, dropping it on a dyno or actually in the car and finding out it doesn't work. It's just a risk I'm not willing to take.

Essentially the plan is, to do the engine first, make it reliable, then concentrate on the suspension, fatter tires, better alloys etc.

I can handle the car perfectly around corners now, I know it's limit and certainly it's limit is far more than mine, which is a good match for safety. I'm no race driver, but I'm not dull. It's straight lines I'm feeling it could be improve as I'm quite happy with the cornering speeds as is, it's fast enough around a corner for me.
[MENTION=3203]Rogue[/MENTION]

 

[TB Rich]

I don't know if you can run the Meg box, something I'll need to look into myself as I need a new box (though I'll need short gears mind).

If you're forging your engine though, it doesn't really matter if it's done 20k or 120k. You'll be re-honing (maybe an over bore as well), new bearings, new rods, new pistons - basically only retaining the crank. I don't know what this chaps turbo conversion does to the top end, but it's not a stretch to add new hyd lifters, new valve springs and get the head cleaned up and valves re-lapped in. New head gasket and new belts, water pump etc and then like I say - who cares what the base engine started with when everything is new!

I'd also get some forged valves in there too, no point having a nice bottom end only for the shoddy OE valves to drop a head and destroy it all. It's about £350 I think I paid for my forged valves - for peace of mind it's worth it.

 

[Kazumz]

I don't know if you can run the Meg box, something I'll need to look into myself as I need a new box (though I'll need short gears mind).

If you're forging your engine though, it doesn't really matter if it's done 20k or 120k. You'll be re-honing (maybe an over bore as well), new bearings, new rods, new pistons - basically only retaining the crank. I don't know what this chaps turbo conversion does to the top end, but it's not a stretch to add new hyd lifters, new valve springs and get the head cleaned up and valves re-lapped in. New head gasket and new belts, water pump etc and then like I say - who cares what the base engine started with when everything is new!

I'd also get some forged valves in there too, no point having a nice bottom end only for the shoddy OE valves to drop a head and destroy it all. It's about £350 I think I paid for my forged valves - for peace of mind it's worth it.

I should probably wait a little while for a few more 197/200's to be done then? They've done a fair few 172/182's and it's practically the same engine.

Yeah you've got a point there with mileage. I'll be sure to quote what you've said to them on the phone when the time comes. This is something I'm not going to rush in to, so I'll be reading your reply in about 6 months time again. Any idea what kind of valves I need? Just forged rather than cast?

 

[Gez]

Considering you can buy a 2010 Meg 250 with a cup chasis for under <9k now I wouldn't even be considering doing this to the Clio.

Your Clio is still relatively new too, with just 20k on it, seems daft to ruin it.

The time, effort and money, when you can just sell your Clio for what a meg 250 is to buy and it has all the suspension, brakes, LSD etc to handle the power standard.

A basic map on it's own takes it up to 300+


Maybe it's just me being boring. Good luck either way 8)

 

[TB Rich]

Any idea what kind of valves I need? Just forged rather than cast?

Standard valves are 2-piece and the weld is right above the head to the stem. Prone to failure from revs and I would say excesive heat (from running boost) on the exhaust side would concern me that if I spent a bob on pistons etc for £350 you might aswell.
Supertech do a set of single piece stainless inlet valves and an iconel exhaust valve. The exhaust valve is actually still a 2-piece design but the weld is much further up the stem away from the direct heat of the flame front in the CC. Engine Dynamics who supplied and fitted mine said he had a written letter from Supertech warranting the exhaust valves from failure. I can point you in the direction of a full set of titanium valves if you want..... but they're over £1700 at todays exchange rate!

Also, Gez speaks the truth mate 100%. Honestly sod boosting/tuning the Clio's engine unless your a retard like me with a violent disposition against boost! Dropping a Meg engine in makes sense for those with older cars and/or tired engines etc. If you're not adverse to a bit of boost then buy the Meg.

 

[litchy]

Sense, when did sense ever come into modding cars? Yes you could buy a Meg but what's wrong with being different. If you apply that kind of logic then the billion pound moddin scene wouldn't exist overnight. It's only 5k. Most people will measure their own experiences and transfer those onto you.

It's the interesting stuff that keeps the scene interesting and gives it longevity. I'm guessing most people last weekend didn't just go to look at a load of clone Clio's. Forums are full of people telling you how to spend your money behind their keyboards, it's your hard earned spend it as you want. The only advice I'd give you is wait if your going down this route. I personally would like to see a couple of these done before jumping on board. The torque figures don't look that great so I like to see how the conversion stacks up on the road.

 

[Kazumz]

It's more for me, I don't like the look of the Meganes, they look awful IMO, especially with this new Clio 4 RS front bumper scheme that they've got going on all their cars, it's pretty rank, but that's just the looks, I know they're mechanically amazing. The old front bumper was far nicer and actually looked sportier. I've loved the Clio's shape, looks and curves, it just does it for me and is lighter than the megane. £5,000 isn't a lot of money for me at the moment, especially when I'm getting half of that back for free from an accident I had in 2012 which can be found on the first page, THEY FINALLY PAID OUT! I'm actually only investing £2,500 when you think about it, the rest is just free money back from a claim I made because I was legitimately injured from it, still scares the crap out of me sometimes as silly as it sounds, I'm still mega cautious. That was only 30mph too, cannot imagine what it would have looked like at 50mph +...

I'm not gonna sell my car, that's the end of it. I've had 3 Clio Mark 3's and I'm still not bored of it. The only time I've changed my Clio, is for a bigger, faster engine.

I'll wait, certainly, but how does this sound on top of Stage 3 (http://www.clioturbo.co.uk/renault-servicing.html):

Low Boost - High Boost Switch (220BHP Low, 330BHP High)
Turbo Timer
3" Straight Pipe Exhaust
Boost, Oil Pressure and Oil Temp Gauge
Oil Cooler
Water Pump
Forged Valves ( Can someone recommend some valve choices like TB Rich has!)

What am I missing, that could detonate or destroy the engine?

I'm not going to go "Arthur Job" on this, and it's likely it's going to all be done at once, probably more than 5k. But with plenty of time to save, meaning that hopefully they would have completed a few more conversions and ironed out some faults. This "dream" at the moment is the only reason I have a drive for a job at the moment, I don't fancy a house and mortgage at my age, so I want to enjoy myself. I'm 21, really don't want to be stuck with a house, would much rather be stuck with a Clio. Yes, I could save, but if I can get this reliable and fixed up, it will be truly something unique.

 

[Gez]

Seems you've made your mind up and your pretty set on doing it.

fair play, good for you..! :thumbsup:

I'm all for modifying, I just thought I'd make a point of suggesting considering a Meg 250 due to your car being newer and such low mileage.

With that said, I look forward to seeing this get boosted 8)

 

[TB Rich]

Supertech valves are the only choice off the shelf iirc. Other than those Ti ones at crazy money.

Supertech you have 2 choices now - first 1 is on size: OE size (33.5mm inlet, 29mm exhaust) or larger (35mm inlet, 30mm exhaust), but of course that would be a lot of extra dosh for a big valve head too. And now you also get a choice on the exhaust valves now, steel or Iconel. Used to be only Iconel exhaust.

http://www.engine-dynamics.com/Products/Product.asp?departmentid=111&id=104784

They've come down in price too, I paid £449 for my std size with Iconel exh!!

 

[Kazumz]

Supertech valves are the only choice off the shelf iirc. Other than those Ti ones at crazy money.

Supertech you have 2 choices now - first 1 is on size: OE size (33.5mm inlet, 29mm exhaust) or larger (35mm inlet, 30mm exhaust), but of course that would be a lot of extra dosh for a big valve head too. And now you also get a choice on the exhaust valves now, steel or Iconel. Used to be only Iconel exhaust.

http://www.engine-dynamics.com/Products/Product.asp?departmentid=111&id=104784

They've come down in price too, I paid £449 for my std size with Iconel exh!!

Will probably stick with standard size. They've promised 330bhp so I'm going to go ahead and assume I'm not gonna need anything extended in size, but I want the parts to be top quality. I think the titanium ones are a little over rated for the car, maybe for something pushing 500bhp, but for 330bhp Supertech will do, as long as they are a single piece so it can't snap off, drop and smash the pistons to pieces. I'm fairly certain 330bhp will be enough for this car and will scratch my itch for a while at least.

Anything else you can think of Rich? You've raised a good point here, they don't list uprated valves on their website so a really good call there.

In other good news, I've received another job offer which I've gladly taken. Should help push this project through faster.

Beneficial to get some of these too? http://www.engine-dynamics.com/EngineComponents/pid3/cid111/CatcamsUpratedValveSpringSet16.asp

 

[TB Rich]

Will probably stick with standard size. They've promised 330bhp so I'm going to go ahead and assume I'm not gonna need anything extended in size, but I want the parts to be top quality. I think the titanium ones are a little over rated for the car, maybe for something pushing 500bhp, but for 330bhp Supertech will do, as long as they are a single piece so it can't snap off, drop and smash the pistons to pieces. I'm fairly certain 330bhp will be enough for this car and will scratch my itch for a while at least.

Anything else you can think of Rich? You've raised a good point here, they don't list uprated valves on their website so a really good call there.

In other good news, I've received another job offer which I've gladly taken. Should help push this project through faster.

Supertechs will be more than good enough even for 500bhp. Those Ti ones are what you'd use in a full on 20k++ build with solid top end etc. Ignore them frankly!!

As for anything else? Well depends how belt and braces you want to be mate? I didn't like the typical forged rod offerings from the likes of PEC, the cap design around the bolts is too sharp and introduces a fatigue point - I've seen failures there. So I used Arrow rods in my build, rrp though is about £1100 vs about £450. (also some debate on the pec rods being from china which you can get for £200 unbranded!). something like Arrow, Sainz, Carrillo or Robson Engineering would be the brands I'd peronsally want.

As this is a turbo application it means you won't be revving the tit's off it, so you can stick with stock valve springs and hyd lifters imo. But for anything turbo related I am certinaly not the person you want to be speaking to :lol:

 

[Kazumz]

Supertechs will be more than good enough even for 500bhp. Those Ti ones are what you'd use in a full on 20k++ build with solid top end etc. Ignore them frankly!!

As for anything else? Well depends how belt and braces you want to be mate? I didn't like the typical forged rod offerings from the likes of PEC, the cap design around the bolts is too sharp and introduces a fatigue point - I've seen failures there. So I used Arrow rods in my build, rrp though is about £1100 vs about £450. (also some debate on the pec rods being from china which you can get for £200 unbranded!). something like Arrow, Sainz, Carrillo or Robson Engineering would be the brands I'd peronsally want.

As this is a turbo application it means you won't be revving the tit's off it, so you can stick with stock valve springs and hyd lifters imo. But for anything turbo related I am certinaly not the person you want to be speaking to :lol:

I won't inquire about this at the moment as what they use may change. As far as I know, they're I Beam rods. I'll be looking back on this once I get the money together and I'll be sure to mention you.

I won't be needing a new Crank due to the torque increase?

 

[TB Rich]

I won't be needing a new Crank due to the torque increase?

I've never looked in to it from a boost point of view, i.e lots of torque, only looking at it from an NA point of view, i.e lots of revs. The standard cranks for NA trim are ok but when you're reving the tits off them (think 8.5k+) the long stroke isn't ideal so you run the Maxi Evo crank with revised geometry. Overal the Maxi Evo uses a short stroke crank and longer rods (and 84mm pistons), this puts less of an angle on the rods and also keeps the piston closer to tdc for longer - helping to create more cylinder pressure and better power.

So of course you'd see some benefit but it sounds like massive overkill to me for your application. You'd be best off asking those with boosted engines though as to what the crank is like with real torque being applied through it.

 

[Kazumz]

I've never looked in to it from a boost point of view, i.e lots of torque, only looking at it from an NA point of view, i.e lots of revs. The standard cranks for NA trim are ok but when you're reving the tits off them (think 8.5k+) the long stroke isn't ideal so you run the Maxi Evo crank with revised geometry. Overal the Maxi Evo uses a short stroke crank and longer rods (and 84mm pistons), this puts less of an angle on the rods and also keeps the piston closer to tdc for longer - helping to create more cylinder pressure and better power.

So of course you'd see some benefit but it sounds like massive overkill to me for your application. You'd be best off asking those with boosted engines though as to what the crank is like with real torque being applied through it.

I'm thinking if it's okay to run the typical cast iron crank rather than something like a forged or billet steel crank rather than the geometry. If I was looking at high tuned NA engines like yourself, it's beneficial to look at the minor as well as the major to extract as much power, down to a point, as possible. Seems a cast iron crank can handle around 800nm though, so no where near the Clio's output. Like you said though, it won't be a revvy car anymore and the limit will probably be around 6,500, so I'm more concerned about components handling torque rather than RPM as it won't be spinning fast at all.

Think a 3" single exit exhaust would be better also? I think a 2.5" single exit won't be enough?

 

[Pav]

just catching up on this Kaz..firstly,grats to your new job :thumbup:
secondly,does that mean that you are not taking that place here in Manchester,you mentioned to me last time we spoke??
really like your plans on making your baby faster..just cant stop playing with the same idea myself..looks like you have done your homework there..quite a knowledge presented by you...rich is very helpful..good read here anyway..lots of good advice guys..
which ever way you decide to go,it will be interesting to keep a close eye on this.....
good luck mate

 

[TB Rich]

Think a 3" single exit exhaust would be better also? I think a 2.5" single exit won't be enough?

I would have thought 3" is what you want for boost at 300+. In terms of single vs twin exit (on a 4cyl), then single is always better - when ever you have to make a split and diverge the exhaust gasses it will effect flow. It's purely aesthetics having twin exit. If I had a 197 diffuser I'd do single exit, but the 200 diffuser just looks gash with a single exit imo.

If I was you I'd be all over the Meg forums more than a whore is with crack, there's going to be considerable overlap in what you'll be wanting to do.

 

[Kazumz]

I would have thought 3" is what you want for boost at 300+. In terms of single vs twin exit (on a 4cyl), then single is always better - when ever you have to make a split and diverge the exhaust gasses it will effect flow. It's purely aesthetics having twin exit. If I had a 197 diffuser I'd do single exit, but the 200 diffuser just looks gash with a single exit imo.

If I was you I'd be all over the Meg forums more than a whore is with crack, there's going to be considerable overlap in what you'll be wanting to do.

I'll check it out. However, with a 200 diffuser, you're not going to really notice the single exit, only when it's cold? [MENTION=39785]dajones[/MENTION] mentioned that he thought it would look like a 1.2 Clio with a bodykit lmfao. Yeah, I was thinking the 3" straight through single exit would be fantastic for it. I'm also looking at reducing the cars weight too IE: Bucket Seats, Race Battery, Lightweight alloys.

 

[Kazumz]

Thanks @Pav and no, Ill be down by Chippenham at this rate! First it was Manchester, then it was Cwmbran, now its Chippenham lmao! I'm just receiving better offers at the moment. I love the idea of living in Chippenham though with the idea of Castle Comb right next door...

I'll be doing something with it, that's for sure. The fact that ClioTurbo can offer an all in package is just too attractive to say no, less arsing about, more stutututu... Once I get the engine done, I'll start improving the car through the corners then, especially once I feel more confident with it on a track.

I'm mega excited at the prospect of having that 2.0l engine ticking away and when I chuck my foot down, magical unicorns fart at the same time and push me to glory. In all seriousness though, this is something I've been wanting to do for a long time and even the Mrs is onboard with it, which is quite strange lmao! It'll be very unique and I think because it's unique, it'll be more exciting to drive.

Just want to start working now ...

 

[Gez]

What's your goal with this car? As in the end result?

Pure track car for track days or a daily?