Track Clio 197 engine mods...the next step
- Thread starter Luke69
- Start date
Putting a completely different manufacturer engine will not be as easy as 'dropping it in'. Not in a clio, big modifications will be needed, new ECU, custom loom, the driveshafts won't match, You'll need a new dash, the list will go on. When will you lot learn lol! Just buy something else lol!
Forums Eh.....lol
Sod the power issue, any more
pics of the bird? LOL
id find another garage that would do the work! They want keep spending money chasing power....
pics of the bird? LOL
id find another garage that would do the work! They want keep spending money chasing power....
Cracking car though, would love to have a go at that.
Cams + ITB's are not that expensive, surely?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSdo3tGDnFI
and if your pockets are deep enough:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2B5Lkp0Au8
Cams + ITB's are not that expensive, surely?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSdo3tGDnFI
and if your pockets are deep enough:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2B5Lkp0Au8
Cams have seen for around 7-800£ and ITB's +1000£
Just not sure if would need to change ECU when fitting ITB's or would that work ok with original ECU
Just not sure if would need to change ECU when fitting ITB's or would that work ok with original ECU
TB Rich
Paid Member
You'll need to do something about the ECU for ITB's. An ITB setup will typically run using TPS as the only load sensor, MAP on ITB's is pretty crap as the vacuum tends to be too weak without a plenum - as I understand it, and certainly every after market ITB setup I've seen has been TPS only.
Ktec are apparently releasing the Gen128 at the end of the summer though - so all our ECU prayers will be answered. However, as far as ITB's go there is feck all room for decent sized trumpets and filtration to have a decent tract length. You'll ideally want to cut the front area and probably replace with a tubular setup.
Unless you go really wild cams where you need ITB's to get the thing to idle properly, then it doesn't seem a lot of point as the mk3 inlet setup is not too bad, it is a proven item on spec's up to R3 Maxi Evo's (250cv). There might be some gains to be had sure, if you can get the right length inlet tract etc - but you're going to be treading a lot of unknown ground finding out!
With the F4R you really have to take a somewhat holistic approach to tuning it because it's not the sort of engine to give up power easily. You'll end up wasting alot on time and parts otherwise.
So; 1) How much power do you want? 2) How much money do you have?
Ktec are apparently releasing the Gen128 at the end of the summer though - so all our ECU prayers will be answered. However, as far as ITB's go there is feck all room for decent sized trumpets and filtration to have a decent tract length. You'll ideally want to cut the front area and probably replace with a tubular setup.
Unless you go really wild cams where you need ITB's to get the thing to idle properly, then it doesn't seem a lot of point as the mk3 inlet setup is not too bad, it is a proven item on spec's up to R3 Maxi Evo's (250cv). There might be some gains to be had sure, if you can get the right length inlet tract etc - but you're going to be treading a lot of unknown ground finding out!
With the F4R you really have to take a somewhat holistic approach to tuning it because it's not the sort of engine to give up power easily. You'll end up wasting alot on time and parts otherwise.
So; 1) How much power do you want? 2) How much money do you have?
rosscoe
Platinum Member
If it will install without much trouble, make a few sets of mounts and drive shafts etc, you'll sell them no problem
Too Right, I'll have a set too..;-)
Well it looks like we are just going to do the remap at the mo and then start working on the engine at the end of the year when TA has finished... gonna start looking into it now so we know whats gonna be needed and aprox. costs
I have AT Power ITBs, TDF EC1 ecu, catcams 402 on my car. You won't get the power you are wanting especially if your benchmark is Honda Type R's.
When I went on the same road 2 years back I had the same dream.
Faced tons of ECU issues especially with the map. But yours being a track car probably you won't mind much at all for all the lights on your dashboard on. my 2 cents
When I went on the same road 2 years back I had the same dream.
Faced tons of ECU issues especially with the map. But yours being a track car probably you won't mind much at all for all the lights on your dashboard on.
my 2 cents
Raptor6767
Gold Member
I have AT Power ITBs, TDF EC1 ecu, catcams 402 on my car. You won't get the power you are wanting especially if your benchmark is Honda Type R's.
When I went on the same road 2 years back I had the same dream.
Faced tons of ECU issues especially with the map. But yours being a track car probably you won't mind much at all for all the lights on your dashboard on.
Ashe, do you know how much bhp did you gain just with the ITB's?
Raptor, with the ITB and having flew Matt from TDF here to tune, I actually gained 5bhp! At least the torque was much better across the range.
To give more context.
On wheel was 166 (stock) to 172 bhp... but the ambient temp here is 35C so supposedly its due to the heat soak. But your location may be colder and yield more bhp as compared to here.
In my opinion, best to do a megane swap is cheaper than the NA route for the clio. Got a quote in UK and I could have done a full megane forged build with the $ spent for ITB path.
Sadly, I can't source a megane engine locally...
To give more context.
On wheel was 166 (stock) to 172 bhp... but the ambient temp here is 35C so supposedly its due to the heat soak. But your location may be colder and yield more bhp as compared to here.
In my opinion, best to do a megane swap is cheaper than the NA route for the clio. Got a quote in UK and I could have done a full megane forged build with the $ spent for ITB path.
Sadly, I can't source a megane engine locally...
TB Rich
Paid Member
Just to confirm, you went from stock 166@wheels (~195@fly) to ITB's, 402's and ECU and got 172@wheels (~203@fly) ??
You should be making about 180@wheels (210@fly) with 402's on a standard inlet setup. So either your ITB setup is costing you power or more likley you should get your cam timing checked via a dial gauge because catcams are useless at machining their blanks properly. Even if the ITB setup wasn't ideal (got any pictures?) you usually find short track lengths don't tend to sacrafice the top end gains, just that they limit the midrange vs a longer inlet tract.
You should be making about 180@wheels (210@fly) with 402's on a standard inlet setup. So either your ITB setup is costing you power or more likley you should get your cam timing checked via a dial gauge because catcams are useless at machining their blanks properly. Even if the ITB setup wasn't ideal (got any pictures?) you usually find short track lengths don't tend to sacrafice the top end gains, just that they limit the midrange vs a longer inlet tract.
We initially thought that the timings were off but we were not able to ascertain. We kinda accepted the hp figures due to the higher ambient temp as compared to UK. (I'm in malaysia)
Rich, when you mention the dial gauge what do you mean? Do share more on how to do this or what tools necessary to do this. Really would like to get it right if really its' 180@wheels!
TB Rich
Paid Member
I'm building an engine now with 403 cams and making really bad power. I've been spending alot of time researching and speaking to some decent tuners since and all of them say that the cams should be timed via a dial gauge and not using the standard Renault timing tool.
Basically you lock the bottom end at TDC and then measure the correct valve lift with the dial gauge. It's not a quick job though because the F4R is stupid in that the rocker cover retains the camshafts (there is no seperate cam ladder), which means you need either a cut up spare rocker cover or catcams do a proper timing tool.
Basically you lock the bottom end at TDC and then measure the correct valve lift with the dial gauge. It's not a quick job though because the F4R is stupid in that the rocker cover retains the camshafts (there is no seperate cam ladder), which means you need either a cut up spare rocker cover or catcams do a proper timing tool.
TB Rich
Paid Member
Well I would just get the cams timed in the correct position. This engine and the procedure to change timing is way too expensive to start trying different settings really.
If you wanted to get serious and then start advancing/retarding, personally I would get a non-vvt exhaust cam and stick a vernier on it. You might find some top end gains to be had from retarding the exh cam. Remember inlet has full time vvt so can be adjusted in ECU.
402's are quite mild, so just time them up to correct settings. Also - as standard there isn't much clearance to the pistons, don't want to risk contact
The dial guage method is just an accurate method to ensure correct timing (using catcams spec sheet), the Renault timing tool relys on CatCams machining the cam blanks correctly - this in my experiance (first hand on a Peugoet engine) and in the research I've conducted recently - is basically a lottery as to how lucky you are.
If you wanted to get serious and then start advancing/retarding, personally I would get a non-vvt exhaust cam and stick a vernier on it. You might find some top end gains to be had from retarding the exh cam. Remember inlet has full time vvt so can be adjusted in ECU.
402's are quite mild, so just time them up to correct settings. Also - as standard there isn't much clearance to the pistons, don't want to risk contact
The dial guage method is just an accurate method to ensure correct timing (using catcams spec sheet), the Renault timing tool relys on CatCams machining the cam blanks correctly - this in my experiance (first hand on a Peugoet engine) and in the research I've conducted recently - is basically a lottery as to how lucky you are.
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