Whiteline Springs?
- Thread starter CaptainCaveman
- Start date
I wonder why they'd spec anything hard if it wasn't suitable? Whiteline tend to go the extra mile with handling parts, so hard to believe they'd get it that wrong?? But then again, you could say that of H&R...
RSRowe
Paid Member
You'd know about it if you were hitting the bump stops. I've not managed to catch them in big compressions on track either. So I doubt you're hitting them on the roads.
You want a firm ride but without the bumpiness. I think your only cheap solution is going to be fitting none cup shocks to your current lowering springs. But having driven both, I really do thing the cup shocks feel 10 times better.
You want a firm ride but without the bumpiness. I think your only cheap solution is going to be fitting none cup shocks to your current lowering springs. But having driven both, I really do thing the cup shocks feel 10 times better.
Hmmm... Not sure you've quite got that right fella.
A softer damper will be even more bouncy, as it will be even less able to contain the loads transferred through the spring. I think the bounciness is mostly due to the shorter spring not being very well matched to Cup damper. Obviously the dampers are valved to control the motion of the OEM spring. With shorter and softer springs, the spring will compress more than stock, and arrive more quickly to the hard part of the spring when hitting bumps, causing it to compress and rebound more abruptly.I harder spring will reduce the amount of spring compression when hitting a bump, but it will be less able to absorb bumps and so the ride will be more crashy on broken surfaces.
I think I'd rather have a firmer ride, than a bouncy one - so will look for slightly firmer springs I think.
I’ve currently got refreshed 200 cup shocks on grams springs, the ride on B roads can be very harsh. My understanding is that car is actually skipping over the bumps in the road with this setup. By fitting softer spring and dampers the tyres would actually be in contact with the road more, leading to a softer ride. Maybe someone with a better understanding than me could explain it.
Sorry, not read past this post yet so this maybe said later on, but you are wrong in saying they tyres won't make any difference, or more importantly the mass and then the rotating mass. The standard damper was designed to work with a known mass of wheel and tyre. There will be variances on that but the spring rates and mass are known to those specifying the damping rates. You have a bigger (heavier) wheel and a bigger, heavier tyre. I would guess you are probably 3kg or around 15 to 20% up per corner over the standard set up. Your sprung mass has gone up which absolutely will have an effect on ride. Plus of course you are on shorter stiffer springs and stiffer tyre. I was going to put a load of stuff about the effects of sprung and unsprung mass but basically catch a tennis ball dropped from 10m, you will hardly notice it, catch a medicine ball dropped from the same height, it will nearly put you through the floor. So the body of the car is now going react far more to bumps and at the same time the standard dampers is both struggling to deal with the shorter travel they have to work in and very much the extra mass they are trying to control. I would very much expect some overtravel and undesirable frequency of movement due to the car now being under damped.All the dampers are brand new 200 Cup ones, so definitely not them. Tyres won't make any difference, as it's the the way the damper is struggling to control the rebound momentum caused by the harder spring compressing over bumps, combined with the lack of travel I'm guessing. I'm talking motorway speeds - roads round here are shocking tbh, which doesn't help!
Thanks for the replies so far. I'm kinda unsure what to do, as the Whitelines are normally a good option in my experience of the brand, as they're quite a serious 'handling' specialist, but the spring rates they run on the Clio are possibly the hardest I've seen; 4.7kg/mm (263lb/in) front and 6.2kg/mm (347lb/in) rear, which is pretty hardcore!
Maybe the Eibachs, but don't want a soft setup either. Firm is fine, as long as it's controlled...
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Plus you have spacers which increase the fulcrum length of the contact patch to the damper meaning they have yet more to do. You need different dampers.
Thanks for all the comments. Yes it's definitely clear that the springs are poorly matched to the dampers. When you raise the front of the car up, it's quite telling just how much droop there is on the spring, which also demonstrates how much of the available damper travel has been used up due to the softer front spring specified by H&R.
As we know, the springs are progressive, so the further down the travel they get, the harder they become. The softer spring than stock, added to the higher unsprung mass means that more of the softer part of the spring and damper travel have been used up when the car is just riding along. When the car hits a bump, the damper is being forced through a shorter rate of motion, exacerbated by the softer spring, which causes the car to pogo up and down even more than normal.
I am therefore considering the Bilstein B14 kit instead of trying another set of springs, as I'm not sure that I'll ever find a lowering spring that will properly match the Cup damper.
As we know, the springs are progressive, so the further down the travel they get, the harder they become. The softer spring than stock, added to the higher unsprung mass means that more of the softer part of the spring and damper travel have been used up when the car is just riding along. When the car hits a bump, the damper is being forced through a shorter rate of motion, exacerbated by the softer spring, which causes the car to pogo up and down even more than normal.
I am therefore considering the Bilstein B14 kit instead of trying another set of springs, as I'm not sure that I'll ever find a lowering spring that will properly match the Cup damper.
B14 are a good call, but I'm happy with my Cooksports. When I had them fitted at Cooksport's premises in Bristol the guys were telling me that Josh (Cook) develops & tests them himself. Hope the Bilsteins suit you.
No. Any lowering spring worth its salt, will compensate for the reduction in travel with a proportional increase in spring rate, to ensure that the spring doesn't bottom out. I spoke to Cooksport yesterday,and they agreed on that principle, however are closely guarding their spring rates and refuse to share them.
The Grams or Cooksports look like the best option tbh, relative to the Cup spring rates.
I went from cup shocks and h&r springs which i didn't mind too much, to B14's. And the difference was amazing. the B14's are an amazing bit of kit, they ride so nice. They seem a little bouncy but i think mine are a little too low to be at their best. But they aren't half as crashy as the old setup and the corner better too
Does it feel like the car is bouncing from one end of the car in particular? I've been running H&R's on my cup packed 200 for the last 3 years (30mm front/40mm rear)and the only time i ever thought the car was 'bouncy' was when on back roads with undulations in the road whilst through a corner. It only ever seemed to affect the rear of the car though, which if you look at the spring rates the H&R spring is stiffer at the rear than the stock one. Combine this with the fact there is barely any weight at the rear and it's no wonder there is some bounce which i suppose feels like lift off oversteer when it happens. The thing is I have learned to embrace this as it actually can be used to help rotate the car round a corner better.
I will say though they are a very hard riding springs and if anything it always felt 'crashy' on the road over speed bumps and pot holes
I will say though they are a very hard riding springs and if anything it always felt 'crashy' on the road over speed bumps and pot holes
The rear is firm, but seems controlled. The rear springs are a little firmer than stock, but within the tolerance of the damper I'd say, and there is still plenty of travel left. The front however has a much bigger drop than the rear, and there is barely any suspension travel left in the shock, which I think is the issue, due to the softer spring rate on the front.
If I could, I'd love to see if a firmer, but longer travel spring on the front would solve the issue, as it would allow the spring to have a greater range of motion before hitting the hardest part of the spring.
If I could, I'd love to see if a firmer, but longer travel spring on the front would solve the issue, as it would allow the spring to have a greater range of motion before hitting the hardest part of the spring.
With respect to everyone, I would find this very strange. How can a customer, road or motorsport, hope to make any form of informed decision if this information is not available. It could be anything. Beyond this it is not actually very difficult to find out if you happened to be a spring manufacture and wanted to know. If they were also supplying a damper set up to go with it, then so say "we are not telling you what the springs are" would be more acceptable but it appears that that is not the case. So ultimately, how do you know what you have?
Which springs did you for in the end?
I am looking to make the same decision now so any opinions you have would be good to hear
I am looking to make the same decision now so any opinions you have would be good to hear
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