Springs Or Coils?
- Thread starter IanRS200
- Start date
You speak sense mate but just trying to figure out if springs are nice enough to have instead of coils ha!
I think the main thing with coilovers is that you have much more adjustability with dampening so as Angel said, you can have it low, flat round corners and a lovely smooth ride. Springs are low flat through corners and a lovely bumpy ride lol. If you can comfortably afford them then go for it.
wouldnt get coilovers for road use only, standard set up is good enough on the roads handling wise imo
Ok here is my opinion on this subject, and there is no definitive or fully correct solution available, just a very good compromise.
On the stock setup with shocks and springs the shock absorber is a set length that is designed to work with the factory spring, it is all very complicated and roll centres weight transfer, slip angles, shock absorber parameters are all part of the equation.
Fitting a lowering spring on a standard shock absorber, means that the spring has to be compromised, it has the either be softer so on full droop it does not pop out of its retainers or has to be thicker with less coils, Eibach are the true gems at mastering this but you have a setup that is truly compromised. You may have a car that sits well, but in the corner the weight transfer is out with the shocks working parameters. If you want to fit lowering springs you really need shorter shock absorbers. This can all work very well, and is the proper way to go, a proper variable rate spring with a shorter shock, correctly valved.
To try and visualise what happens with a lowering spring on a standard length shock, imagine your car driving along the road, now for arguments sake, with the standard ride height shocks and springs fitted you are driving along at 60 mph and you apply the brakes hard, the front compresses and the rear rises. Now fit lowering springs of say 30mm all round. Do the same test, now the front is already 30mm lower, and you apply the brakes the front dips the same, but the rear which is 30 mm lower, actually now rises 60mm more than it did with the stock springs, giving a lot more weight transfer. This has a drastic effect on the cars handling.
Now most people think that a stiffer lower car handles better than a car on stock suspension, but a lot of it is the placebo effect, a bit like a car with a loud exhaust is faster than one with a quiet exhaust.
The only real way to get the Clio and other cars to be lower than factory and ride well is to fit a good set of 3 way adjustable shock absorbers or have a custom set of short shocks correctly lengthed and valved with springs to suit. KW Variant 3's work very well, still a compromise as they have a linear coil spring which is great on track but harder to control on the road, if KW did a variable rate conventional spring for their kits, it would be road perfection.
This is not the end, as once you have fitted your £1400 quids worth of suspension it now needs to be setup, this includes finding the best ride height, that gives the best roll and corner grip, weight transfer etc, once you have found what feels good, it is then time to corner weight the car. After that, you then need to find the ideal damper settings that suit you. A hard stiff car for road use is a slow car, you need a car that has a bit of roll, so that the tyres have maximum grip, and the least amount of damping to control the springs, again to make sure that you have the most grip. You will find a car setup properly on 3 way adjustable's will have a smoother and more comfortable ride, will corner faster, have more traction, be less crashy and an overall delight to drive.
Sorry to go on, this is a subject I have been involved with for many years, it is a bit of a black art, as there are few people that actually understand what a good handling car is, that works well on our British roads. Even manufactures get it wrong.
The difference between a hot hatch and say a Porsche, is that Porsche fit high quality damper units, that is probably half the value of the hot hatch, that us why they ride better, corner faster etc etc. if you spend 2 or 3 grand on after market suspension, you should have a fantastic handling car, if you can get it setup properly.
I have setup many a car, and have a good understanding on this subject, having been there got the tea shirt, with race cars and road cars.
So my advice is
If you want a car that sits lower on your driveway fit lowering springs.
If you want a car that sits lower on the road, and handles well, fit a set of fully adjustable coil overs, preferably KW's and get the car setup, remember a proper alignment including subframe squaring will cost over a £100 on stock suspension. So expect to pay for a good days labour. Remember when Bilstein do a kit for a road car they can spend 3 months getting this all correct before releasing a car specific kit.
If you just want a reasonably handling Renault Clio, just keep it as it left the factory, for what it is, the chassis setup works very well, get the alignment done at least once a year and remember It is at that ride height for a reason, with shock lengths to suit, it works well on the road and it works well on the track.
Now I am sorry I may have rambled on and what I have said a lot of you may disagree with me, but this is my opinion, and it is backed up by years of experience. People may have degrees in science, or a shop that sells suspension, but as I say it is not the taking part it is the winning that counts.........second place is the first loser.
Whew that hurt a bit, I need a lie down now, good luck with your choice.
On the stock setup with shocks and springs the shock absorber is a set length that is designed to work with the factory spring, it is all very complicated and roll centres weight transfer, slip angles, shock absorber parameters are all part of the equation.
Fitting a lowering spring on a standard shock absorber, means that the spring has to be compromised, it has the either be softer so on full droop it does not pop out of its retainers or has to be thicker with less coils, Eibach are the true gems at mastering this but you have a setup that is truly compromised. You may have a car that sits well, but in the corner the weight transfer is out with the shocks working parameters. If you want to fit lowering springs you really need shorter shock absorbers. This can all work very well, and is the proper way to go, a proper variable rate spring with a shorter shock, correctly valved.
To try and visualise what happens with a lowering spring on a standard length shock, imagine your car driving along the road, now for arguments sake, with the standard ride height shocks and springs fitted you are driving along at 60 mph and you apply the brakes hard, the front compresses and the rear rises. Now fit lowering springs of say 30mm all round. Do the same test, now the front is already 30mm lower, and you apply the brakes the front dips the same, but the rear which is 30 mm lower, actually now rises 60mm more than it did with the stock springs, giving a lot more weight transfer. This has a drastic effect on the cars handling.
Now most people think that a stiffer lower car handles better than a car on stock suspension, but a lot of it is the placebo effect, a bit like a car with a loud exhaust is faster than one with a quiet exhaust.
The only real way to get the Clio and other cars to be lower than factory and ride well is to fit a good set of 3 way adjustable shock absorbers or have a custom set of short shocks correctly lengthed and valved with springs to suit. KW Variant 3's work very well, still a compromise as they have a linear coil spring which is great on track but harder to control on the road, if KW did a variable rate conventional spring for their kits, it would be road perfection.
This is not the end, as once you have fitted your £1400 quids worth of suspension it now needs to be setup, this includes finding the best ride height, that gives the best roll and corner grip, weight transfer etc, once you have found what feels good, it is then time to corner weight the car. After that, you then need to find the ideal damper settings that suit you. A hard stiff car for road use is a slow car, you need a car that has a bit of roll, so that the tyres have maximum grip, and the least amount of damping to control the springs, again to make sure that you have the most grip. You will find a car setup properly on 3 way adjustable's will have a smoother and more comfortable ride, will corner faster, have more traction, be less crashy and an overall delight to drive.
Sorry to go on, this is a subject I have been involved with for many years, it is a bit of a black art, as there are few people that actually understand what a good handling car is, that works well on our British roads. Even manufactures get it wrong.
The difference between a hot hatch and say a Porsche, is that Porsche fit high quality damper units, that is probably half the value of the hot hatch, that us why they ride better, corner faster etc etc. if you spend 2 or 3 grand on after market suspension, you should have a fantastic handling car, if you can get it setup properly.
I have setup many a car, and have a good understanding on this subject, having been there got the tea shirt, with race cars and road cars.
So my advice is
If you want a car that sits lower on your driveway fit lowering springs.
If you want a car that sits lower on the road, and handles well, fit a set of fully adjustable coil overs, preferably KW's and get the car setup, remember a proper alignment including subframe squaring will cost over a £100 on stock suspension. So expect to pay for a good days labour. Remember when Bilstein do a kit for a road car they can spend 3 months getting this all correct before releasing a car specific kit.
If you just want a reasonably handling Renault Clio, just keep it as it left the factory, for what it is, the chassis setup works very well, get the alignment done at least once a year and remember It is at that ride height for a reason, with shock lengths to suit, it works well on the road and it works well on the track.
Now I am sorry I may have rambled on and what I have said a lot of you may disagree with me, but this is my opinion, and it is backed up by years of experience. People may have degrees in science, or a shop that sells suspension, but as I say it is not the taking part it is the winning that counts.........second place is the first loser.
Whew that hurt a bit, I need a lie down now, good luck with your choice.
I can't fault the standard 200 cup suspension on road or track.
i find the clio sits high when stood still but in the move looks about right
i think lowering springs are more cosmetic than to improve handling. Generally they make handling worse.
i would only change for club sports but I don't think the clio needs is far away from spot on for road or track.
i find the clio sits high when stood still but in the move looks about right
i think lowering springs are more cosmetic than to improve handling. Generally they make handling worse.
i would only change for club sports but I don't think the clio needs is far away from spot on for road or track.
I had springs and now KW's and its night and day with them if you like some fast road driving go for coilovers :thumbup:
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