Lowering a Non-Cup

[Tom]

Hi Guys,

New to car modding and such and I was wondering about lowering a 197 (non-cup) and how that changes the performance.

Can the feel of a 197 cup be acheived by lowering a standard 197?

If so, how low and what springs/coil overs (if there's a difference?) would one buy?

Thanks in advance,
cup.

 

[Willis]

The Cup is only 7mm lower than the Non-Cup, but it is something like 15% stiffer (from memory).

Cup Dampers can be picked up NEW for less than £250 for a full set and Cup Springs pop up in the For Sale section and on eBay etc. fairly often.

If you want to retrofit the Cup suspension package to your 197 then that'd be the easiest and most cost effective way to do it. But, if you want a greater drop in ride height then you would need to look at H&R or Eibach Springs (others are available, but these two seem to be the most popular and are the trusted big-name brands). It cost me just short of £400 for a set of H&R Springs and Cup Dampers. Coilovers will cost you three times this (possibly four times this depending on brand) when you factor in having them set up correctly and will offer umpteen adjustable settings, where as Springs & Dampers will improve the handling of the car but won't have that adjustability.

Hope that helps.

 

[Tom]

Wow, very comprehensive reply, thanks Willis.

Your reply was very useful and more or less clears it up for me except for two questions:

So, do you need to buy dampers AND springs? Forgive my ignorance - what are dampers?

Is it wise to go lower than 7mm? I was thinking of fitting some 16/15" wheels. Will I get any issues on track days, etc? Any advice on a good height to take it to? I do like super-low cars, but I do want it to perform really well.

 

[RalphyBMW]

In very simple terms springs affect the height, shock absorbers alter the bump absorption. Both need to be engineered to compliment each other.

You will probably struggle to find 16" wheels that will clear the front brake calipers.

 

[N0ddie]

Wow, very comprehensive reply, thanks Willis.

Your reply was very useful and more or less clears it up for me except for two questions:

So, do you need to buy dampers AND springs? Forgive my ignorance - what are dampers?

Is it wise to go lower than 7mm? I was thinking of fitting some 16/15" wheels. Will I get any issues on track days, etc? Any advice on a good height to take it to? I do like super-low cars, but I do want it to perform really well.

Yes you do need dampers and springs. What are they? See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPherson_struts

As Ralph has said, you'll struggle to fit 16" wheels over the brakes on you 197. Struggle as in wont fit lol.

I bought height adjustable aftermarket struts and springs (Coilovers) for our 200 and it lowered it a further 15-20mm lower than the Cup suspension. Not had any height issues yet but coilovers are very expensive.

 

[Tom]

Thanks guys.

You will probably struggle to find 16" wheels that will clear the front brake calipers.

As Ralph has said, you'll struggle to fit 16" wheels over the brakes on you 197. Struggle as in wont fit lol.

Haha, okay then! Well, I didn't like the idea of 16's/15's anyway... Just wanted to save weight. Win-win!

Yes you do need dampers and springs. What are they? See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPherson_struts

I bought height adjustable aftermarket struts and springs (Coilovers) for our 200 and it lowered it a further 15-20mm lower than the Cup suspension. Not had any height issues yet but coilovers are very expensive.

Feel very up-to-date on wishbone suspension now. Thanks. Really insightful!

Not going for coilovers, what is the best spring/damper combonation and providing I keep 17's on it, how low can I take it??

Thanks for the great replies so far, guys.

 

[RalphyBMW]

Best spring damper combination is probably to just get the springs and dampers from a 197 Cup or early 200 Cup, that way you will have Cup suspension (excluding the 200 Cup's larger front anti-roll bar).

 

[Robo_#1]

I doubt you'll go "too low" using a standard spring/damper pairing.

Realistically the only thing that gives you the ability to go "too low" would be coilovers, and generally they're height adjustable so its totally up to you on the ride height then.

If your not going to go for coilovers then I can recommend the cup setup, I have that on my car and I find its good on the road and the track, and as the guys have said it can be picked up for a reasonable price.

 

[ryan197]

what are you actually after, do you want to just lower the height or do you want to stiffen it up also for like track or fast road? ive got the original H&R springs (before they changed them) on standard non cup shocks, and to be fair not much diffrence stiffness wise than standard. here a picture of mine with a wider offset wheel but you get the picture.

 

[Tom]

Best spring damper combination is probably to just get the springs and dampers from a 197 Cup or early 200 Cup, that way you will have Cup suspension (excluding the 200 Cup's larger front anti-roll bar).

If your not going to go for coilovers then I can recommend the cup setup, I have that on my car and I find its good on the road and the track, and as the guys have said it can be picked up for a reasonable price.

Cheers guys - sounds like a plan. Where do you get this sort of stuff from?

what are you actually after, do you want to just lower the height or do you want to stiffen it up also for like track or fast road? ive got the original H&R springs (before they changed them) on standard non cup shocks, and to be fair not much diffrence stiffness wise than standard. here a picture of mine with a wider offset wheel but you get the picture.

That car is nice man. I want a similar look on mine. I want low and firm for handling. Would you recommend a similar setup to you, in this case?

 

[ryan197]

i do recomend them but they do retain a sort of standard softness, it does bounce on uneven roads, i would say combined with cup shocks would reduce if not elimate the bouncing. i would say trying going out in one first to see if its your cup of tea. where about you from.

 

[Willis]

Wow, very comprehensive reply, thanks Willis.

Your reply was very useful and more or less clears it up for me except for two questions:

So, do you need to buy dampers AND springs? Forgive my ignorance - what are dampers?

Is it wise to go lower than 7mm? I was thinking of fitting some 16/15" wheels. Will I get any issues on track days, etc? Any advice on a good height to take it to? I do like super-low cars, but I do want it to perform really well.

No probs, glad to help!!!

You don't NEED to change both your Dampers and your Springs, but for what they cost I think it'd be worthwhile to do both at the same time whilst the wheels are off anyway. You'll have to remove the front dampers to change the springs so it's a perfect opportunity to refresh everything.

A good height is a height that doesn't compromise day-to-day driving. If you can't get over a speedbump then it's a bad height. I've dropped mine -35mm front and -40mm rear and I've had no issues with tyres scrubbing or with grounding out on ramps, driveways etc.... I avoid potholes like the plague as a habit and crawl over speedbumps out of respect for my suspension!!!

On track the standard setup is superb. There was maybe a little bit too much roll for my liking, but it was certainly the best standard setup I've ever pushed around a track. I've not been on track with the new setup yet, but I can't envisage there being any problems, it's been an improvement on the road and so by rights should be an even bigger improvement on perfect circuit tarmac.

It depends what you want from your car. There comes a point where being super low and handling solidly will crossover. You can't have both unfortunately, unless you turn her into a dedicated trackcar and buy yourself some coilovers and a trailer to tow her on. But, look at circuit racers, barring GT3 & GT4 cars, most road-based racers aren't actually THAT low. It's the bodywork and deeper valances rather than the ride height that makes them look so low.

Ryans looks ace and mine is the same height, if you're happy with the look of that stance then go for the H&Rs. I can cofirm that with Cup Dampers there isn't much of the bouncing that people have reported with FF Dampers, the H&Rs seem very well matched to the Cup Dampers from my experiences.

 

[Tom]

Blimey, thanks again!

So cup dampers and H&R springs, 35mm front 40mm rear to acheive the same height as Ryans...

Perfect!

You've been really helpful man, thanks very much.