Heel and toe

[Legend@wheels]

Hi
When you exactly press the throttle during h&t ?
I want to start doing this ( tbh it looks kinda pointless) but have read its healthier to the car too. so.. [emoji4]
Im doing it like this brake ,clutch ,before i release the clutch( still held) i give a little touch to the throttle and release clutch and dont touch anything for a moment till gear is in and revs went up than back to throttle

 

[DS197]

I would start with rev-matching during downshifts first as it's easier than heel and toe and since heel and toe incorporates rev-matching. Rev-matching is definitely good when downshifting and also results in a smoother drive and a few pops and bangs I've tried to do heel and toe but can't keep a consistent brake pressure. A lot of people say its not useful on the road, but I disagree. Especially when coming off a dual carriageway/motorway to a roundabout which doesn't have traffic lights.

 

[Legend@wheels]

Those rally drivers are insane how they play on the pedals ,in such a smooth harmony

 

[Kazumz]

I've got downshifting in the bag with these cars. However, I can't do heel and toe in them, the brake just seems miles too high for me personally and I've got size 11 shoes!

 

[DS197]

Those rally drivers are insane how they play on the pedals ,in such a smooth harmony

I know what you mean. I've spent so much time watching them heel and toe! Still amazes me haha

 

[parkincj]

In the Clio I used heel and toe pretty much everywhere! I used my toe on the brake and my heel on the accelerator though, not sure if this is the right method or what? I've now got a Westfield which I cannot do the same as the brake pedal sits a lot further up than the accelerator.

If you want to learn to do it, just keep on practicing, its obviously better for your clutch as you're pretty much doing its job by rev matching. As already mentioned the pops were lovely

 

[pdd144c]

Not needed on these cars really is it. Even on track it's a waste of time on a well setup car. 300 bhp RWD in the rain is when it's more appropriate!

 

[Yimkin]

I've raced in historic saloons for 13 plus years, and used to be instructor, so at least in theory I should know lots (I don't btw)

Heel and toe can be very difficult, but in essence its main use is to keep the weight distribution of the car equal and stop it pitching on its nose, and stop the driven wheels locking up under hard braking and downshifting. I had endless problems in my RWD racecar in the wet until I learnt how to do it.

I'd say it has limited use on the road as you have to be really pushing it (i.e. Too much for public roads) to make a real difference, but it is more mechanically sympathetic. I do rev match on the road, but I have to say out of all the cars I've had the Clio is one of the easiest for heel and toe. You just need to practice (not on public road, too much risk of your foot slipping off the brake) and get your foot position right - it's not really heel and toe, it's more ball of your foot on the brakes, and ball of your little toe on the accelerator. You rock your foot to the right whilst maintaining pressure on the brakes, the pressure thing is the difficult bit. Try double de clutching on a vintage non synchro car, that's *really* difficult to learn!


As for rally drivers, I've tried left foot braking, boy that didn't work out!

 

[peter]

Not needed on these cars really is it. Even on track it's a waste of time on a well setup car. 300 bhp RWD in the rain is when it's more appropriate!

why is it a waste of time on a well set up car? in my experience, heel and toeing makes for a much more stable car in the braking zones.

@Legend@wheels ... deffo give it a go. it's not easy to learn, but keep trying and practising. i'm sure you'll get there. quite satisfying when you get it right. you immediately feel there's a lot less strain on the transmission.

 

[Legend@wheels]

I've raced in historic saloons for 13 plus years, and used to be instructor, so at least in theory I should know lots (I don't btw)

Heel and toe can be very difficult, but in essence its main use is to keep the weight distribution of the car equal and stop it pitching on its nose, and stop the driven wheels locking up under hard braking and downshifting. I had endless problems in my RWD racecar in the wet until I learnt how to do it.

I'd say it has limited use on the road as you have to be really pushing it (i.e. Too much for public roads) to make a real difference, but it is more mechanically sympathetic. I do rev match on the road, but I have to say out of all the cars I've had the Clio is one of the easiest for heel and toe. You just need to practice (not on public road, too much risk of your foot slipping off the brake) and get your foot position right - it's not really heel and toe, it's more ball of your foot on the brakes, and ball of your little toe on the accelerator. You rock your foot to the right whilst maintaining pressure on the brakes, the pressure thing is the difficult bit. Try double de clutching on a vintage non synchro car, that's *really* difficult to learn!


As for rally drivers, I've tried left foot braking, boy that didn't work out!

Double clutching is for non sync gearbox/weak sync right?
Btw where the rev needle need to be placed when i press the throttle ,above the current rev or under it but nearby? Like i downshift from 3rd 4000revs to 2nd so when i accelerate , pass the 4k or get around 3k?

Just an example of course it never be the same rev every time

 

[Yimkin]

In essence, it's a refined form of rev matching. If you are at, say, 4K rpm in 4th, and want to change down to 3rd, you want the engine speed to match the road speed for that gear. So you blip the throttle whilst breaking to the appropriate rpm, I.e. (At a guess) 5K rpm with the clutch depressed. The aim is to stop the car 'pitching' on its nose through excessive weight transfer caused by engine braking.

Yes, double declutching is for no/weak synchro. My dad (78 and still racing!) is great at it, mostly because when he was a kid you had to do it in pretty much any car. Still have an MG Midget where you have to do it to get into first whilst moving.

 

[Yiannis197]

[MENTION=54339]Yimkin[/MENTION] that's exactly it. A refined form of rev matching indeed. Nicely explained in all the above posts so nothing more to add really.

I do H&T all day along (and also when driving the shed) mainly because it's good practice but also because I love it It's fun when doing the boring commute anyway!

 

[pdd144c]

why is it a waste of time on a well set up car? in my experience, heel and toeing makes for a much more stable car in the braking zones.

When ever I've raced fwd cars it's been of little use. If anything I'd rather use the additional engine breaking to assist the brakes. Personal preference I guess!

 

[jont-]

I've raced in historic saloons for 13 plus years, and used to be instructor, so at least in theory I should know lots (I don't btw)

Heel and toe can be very difficult, but in essence its main use is to keep the weight distribution of the car equal and stop it pitching on its nose, and stop the driven wheels locking up under hard braking and downshifting. I had endless problems in my RWD racecar in the wet until I learnt how to do it.

I'd say it has limited use on the road as you have to be really pushing it (i.e. Too much for public roads) to make a real difference, but it is more mechanically sympathetic.

I disagree that it's use on the road is limited - I habitually use it, even when driving gently. It's use is to rev match for mechanical sympathy, not because you're worried about weight balance.
There are 3 approaches to changing gear sympathetically, ignoring DDC.
1) Separate braking from gear change - this is the orthodox roadcraft approach - ie. slow down to the speed you need, then change gear (matching revs while you do so).
2) H&T with blip - this is what I tend to use in the caterham
3) H&T with sustain - which I tend to use in the Clio
To explain the last one - with the clutch down, you can bring the revs up gently to a constant RPM - ie the RPM for the next gear. With a blip, you try to catch the "right" RPM at the point you bring the clutch up - the odds are you've gone past what you need and catch them as they are falling. With a sustain, you have to be more accurate as the revs stay constant(ish).
I think the Clio is easier to sustain than blip (although I'll blip on occasion, and agree it sounds better) - with drive by wire, there's a small lag on pushing the throttle before the revs rise, while the caterham with cable throttle is pretty much instant. The DBW delay isn't as bad as some - with our old Octy VRS you could almost bounce the throttle pedal off the floor stop and the revs would barely chance :001_rolleyes:

 

[Legend@wheels]

Jont
Uhmm
So according to 2nd method : you clutch(revs go down abit) and than you blip the throttle revs up.
3rd method : you clutch but this time not letting the revs go down and keeping it in the same revs all the way? I get this right?
How you exactly doing the third option?
Second i get it : brake ,clutch down ,blip throttle ,release clutch and back to normal throttle press.

 

[jont-]

Jont
Uhmm
So according to 2nd method : you clutch(revs go down abit) and than you blip the throttle revs up.
3rd method : you clutch but this time not letting the revs go down and keeping it in the same revs all the way? I get this right?
How you exactly doing the third option?
Second i get it : brake ,clutch down ,blip throttle ,release clutch and back to normal throttle press.

2nd and 3rd are similar.
So while braking, cover the throttle - as the clutch goes down, squeeze the accelerator - revs might drop slightly as you clutch in before you get on the gas, but time it right and it's not so noticeable. With the revs raised to the right amount for the next gear (but no more), clutch up - transition to gas as needed (remember you're braking during this, so could be continuing braking at the end of things too). When you blip, you tend to take more revs than are needed for the next gear (but wait until the revs drop to the right level before you engage that gear).

It's easier to demonstrate than try and talk through. The differences are subtle - the overall technique is fairly similar. I find the "sustain" approach better in cars with lazy throttle maps/heavy fly wheels as with the blip there's the issue of whether you stab the throttle enough.
I also find sustain easier with gentle braking - otherwise if you H&T with a blip while braking gently, it's hard not to also modulate the brakes. Similarly when braking firmly, a blip might be easier because your foot is at a lower position.