Hey there alltogether!
My Name is Seriosha, im in this Forum (primarily for reading) for a while now and now i need ur help to make the Clio World a bit better =)
The Original Thread is on the German Clio 200 Forum wich can be found here: http://www.cliors.de/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=2992
My Mothertongue is German, but ill try to translate the whole text as best as i can, so please dont be to harsh with my english
Well..
Who are those of you who wish that Wavetrac would Develop a Torsen Differential for the Clio, which in opposite to the ones available, would even under Traction loss at one wheel would still provide Thrust?
For some time now, i was digging in the materia of Differentials because i think its one of the best things you can do to a Clio (and probably even more on many other Cars aswell...)
Actually, there is a ATB Helical LSD by Quaife for both the 197 and the 200. Its Listed at 595 + VAT at their HP.
I will shortly explain how one of those work:
A typicall Torsen Differential (like the Quaife) will lock progrediently, depending on the Grip between 0-90%. As soon as one the Wheels traction goes near to naught its the same as with an open Differential (like the Stockpart).
This means that both Wheels can deliver 0% Thrust.
Like when youre on a Iceplate with one Wheel, in worst case on a steep hill, while the other wheel is on normal Pavement, and you want to set off, nothing will happen. Like with your Stock Clio.
A few years ago, since Quaife is in business since decades, a company named Wavetrac, has come up with an innovation. I will show you a Video, but honestly, without goin in deeper first i didnt get it at first
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WluaaGy0HwA&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
The Difference to a classical Torsen Diff now is the waveformed pressureplate between the both Sides of the Drivetrain. This delivers a pretension between the two at this point connected Sides of the Drivetrain.
So under "normal" circumstances there is no difference between the Wavetrac and the Quaife at all.
BUT: When youre now back on the Iceplate like before, and your Ice placed Wheel starts turning, the Waveplates lock into each other and so will still deliver Thrust to the Wheel on the Grippy Side!
Then i asked myself (you will probably too ) How much Power under this circumstances can be delivered to the Grippy side!?
To get an Answer, i called the Wavetrac distributor in Germany, which has also Shops in the UK, and after that the Manufacturer in the U.S..
Unluckily, they couldnt tell me a percentage or an amount of Torque - still consider that it will be progrediently more depending on the Throttleposition.
What they could tell me is that with our HP and Torque Numbers there would be abolutley no problem, considering that they use such in similiar size for very much more highpowered Cars.
For me, that wasnt enough since it would tell me nothing. So to figure the Torquesplitting out i pulled up the following Question:
If i am on a standstill, on a Hill with 17% steepness. With the right wheel on Ice, and with the left on pavement - what will happen when i want to take off?
The answer was that this would be no problem, even from standstill. Even if you would decrease the Traction on the left side untill a really low amount, you would be able to set off. The Wheel with 0% Traction would still Spin a bit because it would not be unlocked from the Drivetrain.
That at least was an answer i was happy with.
Now you guys will ask "WTF should i be interested in setting off on ice!?"
And youre right, this was just for me and now to you to explain the way this thing works.
Now lets get to the interesting part: On the Track!
The Wavetrac will work like a "normal" Torsen Diff. like the Quaife. At least until the Traction on one Wheel goes direction naught. Which not necesarily means that it has to lift of or something. A minimum Grip level during weighttransfer or curbing will be enough.
With the Stock Differential and the Quaife one it will be same now: The maximum Torque deliverable will depend on the amount the Wheel with the least Traction could. Which is nothing.
The Wavetrac now, how you surely figured out by yourself now, will now still deliver Thrust. Which means there is no weightdistribution, which means the car will stay stable, which means you can still hammer the pedal to the metal, which means youre just faster!
Allright folks, wake up, lesson´s over
The Fact is:
I need at MINUMUM 5 People with definitive interest in this, better 10, better more!
Then we would need an original Differential of a 197 or a 200 which should be the same.
To make it easier, we could need a technial Sheet of the Gearbox/Differential to send along, i already have a Explosion Sheet of it, but with no measurements on it.
Probably i can aquire all this through the Germanspeaking community, but since i dont know it cant be bad to ask here too
When we have this, the Stuff would go to America, where theyll develop this Thing for us, which sould be fast because they just need to put the already available stuff in a fitting housing.
Those would then be available over the Distributors. For me that´ll be the one in Germany. The one in Germany has also Shops in the UK and the Guy operating the German Shop is actually from the UK. Price per Piece would be between 800-900 €uros in Germany.
Further Info:
Wavetrac does provide a Limited Lifetime Warranty. Like Quaife does.
Most will know, but Torsen Diffs. are maintenance free and will operate just fine with the factory filled Gearboxoil.
There is wear tho! The Waveform Plates operate by Friction. But Wavetrac also says its maint. free since till the wear will show performance loss your car will be broken for a long time. If there yould be a problem, even with the parts who undergo wear, Wavetrac will change them on warranty!
Since their products started a few years ago, that hasnt been necessary tho.
For those beneath you who REALLY want to pimp around, there are several special frictionplates available besides the standart one to order which will change the characteristic of the Diff.
Links:
Wavetrac HP
http://www.coordsport.com/
For Questions i´ll be here. Lets hope this will work out quite quick
For me personally this is very important, so ill share this with u: The Contact with both the Manufacturer in the US and the Distributor in Germany was awesome. Very friendly, no haste, time to answer my questions and like you see, very helpful too
P.S.:
For those of u who dont know how a Differential (locking or not) works, here a few Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_differential
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9iPqIQ_8iM&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
- Torsen Differential (Like Quaife) Animation
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4JhruinbWc&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
- Open Differential (Basics) and just awesome Video
Eyes on the 25% Locking Differential here which is a Lamella operated LSD. That means its a fixed locking amount!
The Variable Differential here would be a Wavetrac aquivalent. On the Pavement the Quaife will behave alike.
When on the Rolls, the Quaife would be like the 25% or the one without any.
Of course thats an RWD, but i think you get my point =)
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3BKLn9yK-o&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
Hell yeah, that was some hard work here for me I hope i could explain my Stuff and that you guys can benefit of it.
Seriosha, out. For a beer.
I found an very Interesting Article including a installation manual on a FWD Gearbox which yould be helpful for some people, also another explanation including the Finetune aspect and other Stuff.
http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-1003-wavetrac-lsd-installation/viewall.html
Update 15.05.12:
Well, just had a little Chat with my Contact person.
So heres the thing: Actually, we need a Gearbox or a differential of a 200. This would go over Coordsport or directly to Amrica (depending on what will be easier for us)
Based on what they fiddle out then, well get an offer. (which we think will be around those 800-900 Euros)
This offer will be sent to all REALLY interested people i found with the idea that 10-20% of the price should be paid in advance as a safety for them.
The offer and procentual pre-paying CAN be done with the UK Office of Coordsport, the order for you UK Guys can be finished over the UK Office too, so with a Bill in Pounds and UK Taxes, no Continental Europe Shipment etc.
Thats the best i could do for u Insulans in the respective that youll be my main Order-Mates
SO:
I need minimum a Differential, If possible a Gearbox, if lying around the propshafts aswell.
If someone has that, ill get you the shipment adress of them and will inform my contact. (or you can send them to me, but that would be unnecessary).
Coordsport will order 10 Pcs. at first, but we need those 5 buyers in the first place!
So you see, Coordsport is in my opinion doing us a great favor by helping us in the way we can handle this with them.
Well, get your minds set and lets get this rollin!
Update
I will let this open until the 1st of July, if we dont have enough buyers till then i will cancel this and get myself a Quaife for i want an LSD not in 2 years but now
My Name is Seriosha, im in this Forum (primarily for reading) for a while now and now i need ur help to make the Clio World a bit better =)
The Original Thread is on the German Clio 200 Forum wich can be found here: http://www.cliors.de/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=2992
My Mothertongue is German, but ill try to translate the whole text as best as i can, so please dont be to harsh with my english
Well..
Who are those of you who wish that Wavetrac would Develop a Torsen Differential for the Clio, which in opposite to the ones available, would even under Traction loss at one wheel would still provide Thrust?
For some time now, i was digging in the materia of Differentials because i think its one of the best things you can do to a Clio (and probably even more on many other Cars aswell...)
Actually, there is a ATB Helical LSD by Quaife for both the 197 and the 200. Its Listed at 595 + VAT at their HP.
I will shortly explain how one of those work:
A typicall Torsen Differential (like the Quaife) will lock progrediently, depending on the Grip between 0-90%. As soon as one the Wheels traction goes near to naught its the same as with an open Differential (like the Stockpart).
This means that both Wheels can deliver 0% Thrust.
Like when youre on a Iceplate with one Wheel, in worst case on a steep hill, while the other wheel is on normal Pavement, and you want to set off, nothing will happen. Like with your Stock Clio.
A few years ago, since Quaife is in business since decades, a company named Wavetrac, has come up with an innovation. I will show you a Video, but honestly, without goin in deeper first i didnt get it at first
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WluaaGy0HwA&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
The Difference to a classical Torsen Diff now is the waveformed pressureplate between the both Sides of the Drivetrain. This delivers a pretension between the two at this point connected Sides of the Drivetrain.
So under "normal" circumstances there is no difference between the Wavetrac and the Quaife at all.
BUT: When youre now back on the Iceplate like before, and your Ice placed Wheel starts turning, the Waveplates lock into each other and so will still deliver Thrust to the Wheel on the Grippy Side!
Then i asked myself (you will probably too
) How much Power under this circumstances can be delivered to the Grippy side!?To get an Answer, i called the Wavetrac distributor in Germany, which has also Shops in the UK, and after that the Manufacturer in the U.S..
Unluckily, they couldnt tell me a percentage or an amount of Torque - still consider that it will be progrediently more depending on the Throttleposition.
What they could tell me is that with our HP and Torque Numbers there would be abolutley no problem, considering that they use such in similiar size for very much more highpowered Cars.
For me, that wasnt enough since it would tell me nothing. So to figure the Torquesplitting out i pulled up the following Question:
If i am on a standstill, on a Hill with 17% steepness. With the right wheel on Ice, and with the left on pavement - what will happen when i want to take off?
The answer was that this would be no problem, even from standstill. Even if you would decrease the Traction on the left side untill a really low amount, you would be able to set off. The Wheel with 0% Traction would still Spin a bit because it would not be unlocked from the Drivetrain.
That at least was an answer i was happy with.
Now you guys will ask "WTF should i be interested in setting off on ice!?"
And youre right, this was just for me and now to you to explain the way this thing works.
Now lets get to the interesting part: On the Track!
The Wavetrac will work like a "normal" Torsen Diff. like the Quaife. At least until the Traction on one Wheel goes direction naught. Which not necesarily means that it has to lift of or something. A minimum Grip level during weighttransfer or curbing will be enough.
With the Stock Differential and the Quaife one it will be same now: The maximum Torque deliverable will depend on the amount the Wheel with the least Traction could. Which is nothing.
The Wavetrac now, how you surely figured out by yourself now, will now still deliver Thrust. Which means there is no weightdistribution, which means the car will stay stable, which means you can still hammer the pedal to the metal, which means youre just faster!
Allright folks, wake up, lesson´s over
The Fact is:
I need at MINUMUM 5 People with definitive interest in this, better 10, better more!
Then we would need an original Differential of a 197 or a 200 which should be the same.
To make it easier, we could need a technial Sheet of the Gearbox/Differential to send along, i already have a Explosion Sheet of it, but with no measurements on it.
Probably i can aquire all this through the Germanspeaking community, but since i dont know it cant be bad to ask here too
When we have this, the Stuff would go to America, where theyll develop this Thing for us, which sould be fast because they just need to put the already available stuff in a fitting housing.
Those would then be available over the Distributors. For me that´ll be the one in Germany. The one in Germany has also Shops in the UK and the Guy operating the German Shop is actually from the UK. Price per Piece would be between 800-900 €uros in Germany.
Further Info:
Wavetrac does provide a Limited Lifetime Warranty. Like Quaife does.
Most will know, but Torsen Diffs. are maintenance free and will operate just fine with the factory filled Gearboxoil.
There is wear tho! The Waveform Plates operate by Friction. But Wavetrac also says its maint. free since till the wear will show performance loss your car will be broken for a long time. If there yould be a problem, even with the parts who undergo wear, Wavetrac will change them on warranty!
Since their products started a few years ago, that hasnt been necessary tho.
For those beneath you who REALLY want to pimp around, there are several special frictionplates available besides the standart one to order which will change the characteristic of the Diff.
Links:
Wavetrac HP
http://www.coordsport.com/
For Questions i´ll be here. Lets hope this will work out quite quick
For me personally this is very important, so ill share this with u: The Contact with both the Manufacturer in the US and the Distributor in Germany was awesome. Very friendly, no haste, time to answer my questions and like you see, very helpful too
P.S.:
For those of u who dont know how a Differential (locking or not) works, here a few Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_differential
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9iPqIQ_8iM&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
- Torsen Differential (Like Quaife) Animation
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4JhruinbWc&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
- Open Differential (Basics) and just awesome Video
The probably most informing one:
Eyes on the 25% Locking Differential here which is a Lamella operated LSD. That means its a fixed locking amount!
The Variable Differential here would be a Wavetrac aquivalent. On the Pavement the Quaife will behave alike.
When on the Rolls, the Quaife would be like the 25% or the one without any.
Of course thats an RWD, but i think you get my point =)
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3BKLn9yK-o&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
Hell yeah, that was some hard work here for me
I hope i could explain my Stuff and that you guys can benefit of it.Seriosha, out. For a beer.
I found an very Interesting Article including a installation manual on a FWD Gearbox which yould be helpful for some people, also another explanation including the Finetune aspect and other Stuff.
http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-1003-wavetrac-lsd-installation/viewall.html
Update 15.05.12:
Well, just had a little Chat with my Contact person.
So heres the thing: Actually, we need a Gearbox or a differential of a 200. This would go over Coordsport or directly to Amrica (depending on what will be easier for us)
Based on what they fiddle out then, well get an offer. (which we think will be around those 800-900 Euros)
This offer will be sent to all REALLY interested people i found with the idea that 10-20% of the price should be paid in advance as a safety for them.
The offer and procentual pre-paying CAN be done with the UK Office of Coordsport, the order for you UK Guys can be finished over the UK Office too, so with a Bill in Pounds and UK Taxes, no Continental Europe Shipment etc.
Thats the best i could do for u Insulans in the respective that youll be my main Order-Mates
SO:
I need minimum a Differential, If possible a Gearbox, if lying around the propshafts aswell.
If someone has that, ill get you the shipment adress of them and will inform my contact. (or you can send them to me, but that would be unnecessary).
Coordsport will order 10 Pcs. at first, but we need those 5 buyers in the first place!
So you see, Coordsport is in my opinion doing us a great favor by helping us in the way we can handle this with them.
Well, get your minds set and lets get this rollin!
Update
I will let this open until the 1st of July, if we dont have enough buyers till then i will cancel this and get myself a Quaife for i want an LSD not in 2 years but now
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