C3RS200 Bilstein B14 vs CUP Pack stiffness

[burrellbloke]

If you are considering tweaking your suspension then a set of Gaz Golds will have adjustable top mounts so you can adjust ride height, camber, and dampening. The price of a new set of B14s and additional adjustable top mounts is probably similar to a set of Gaz Golds.

If you want a more compliant ride on Gaz Golds that will deal with bumpy B roads do not go for stiff springs and get a spring rate that is suited to fast road rather than track.

 

[deekay16v]

If you are considering tweaking your suspension then a set of Gaz Golds will have adjustable top mounts so you can adjust ride height, camber, and dampening. The price of a new set of B14s and additional adjustable top mounts is probably similar to a set of Gaz Golds.

If you want a more compliant ride on Gaz Golds that will deal with bumpy B roads do not go for stiff springs and get a spring rate that is suited to fast road rather than track.

I have late top mount so no camber adjustment for me. But this is exactly what I am thinking about. Getting more "road" specs springs and having adjustable damping.

 

[burrellbloke]

You can if you enlarge the top mount holes. https://clio197.net/threads/pitas-gw-200-ff-cup.63875/post-730509

 

[deekay16v]

You can if you enlarge the top mount holes. https://clio197.net/threads/pitas-gw-200-ff-cup.63875/post-730509

I know, but not very keen cutting into my car

 

[deekay16v]

After reading numerous threads etc I am strongly leaning to GAZ golds with cutom spring rates. The question is... which spring rates? My gut feeling tells me that R3 access tarmac spring rates would be good starting point. So somwhere around 70N/mm front and 55N/mm rear. So very soft back compared to track setups.
Anyone rallying here, who can give advice?

 

[RSRowe]

70N/mm and 50N/mm is far from a soft setup.

What are you trying to achieve with a new setup?

 

[deekay16v]

The last thing I want from my car is soft setup I want setup for fast roads of various quality with trackday here and there. From smooth to mediocre, not for pothole fest (I like my rims).
I want maximum body and suspension control at pace and as minimal body shifting as possible when braking, accelerating and turning. Basically throwing car around. I don't care about comfort at lower speeds at all. Basically want a car that I can literally jump over speedbumps without bottoming out or suspension wallowing after landing. I imagine something like the second video in my first post.
If I am not mistaken, Yellowspeed road setup is 7kg front and 4kg rear. Although they use standard spring positions unlike GAZ sothe rear is softer. And ppl here find it even more supple than original CUP.

 

[RSRowe]

I don't think what you want exists to be perfectly honest - not without spending a large amount of money for something completely custom.
You will lose road driveability for a coilover suited to track work, and the same can be said the opposite way.

For a road car, which you can take out at any time, and drive like you're doing a special stage rally, then the standard cup setup is unbeatable in my opinion.

 

[deekay16v]

I don't think what you want exists to be perfectly honest - not without spending a large amount of money for something completely custom.
You will lose road driveability for a coilover suited to track work, and the same can be said the opposite way.

For a road car, which you can take out at any time, and drive like you're doing a special stage rally, then the standard cup setup is unbeatable in my opinion.

So rejuvenating rear cup shocks (fronts are new) and hoping that it solves rear end bounciness (not stifness) that pisses me off, will be your advice?

 

[RSRowe]

Yes - although that really depends on the types of roads you have.
For the roads in the UK (I'm assuming you're abroad, apologies if not), I would go for the non-cup versions. They are much better suited and far less bouncy.

 

[deekay16v]

Yes - although that really depends on the types of roads you have.
For the roads in the UK (I'm assuming you're abroad, apologies if not), I would go for the non-cup versions. They are much better suited and far less bouncy.

Yep, I am from Czechia. And I ride mainly roads like this (some of those locations vere also used for hillclimb races):

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Anyway, thank you very much for your advice! Changing rear shocks is most cost effective way, and we will see. Would gladly fit also some springs that sit lower at rear, but not much.
Shame that HR are like Marmite Some people says the rear is nasty and unpredictable, some says it rides lovely Without trying them out myself, I would never know

 

[RSRowe]

Actually looks quite smooth compared to our roads here.

I had H&R springs and 200 Cup shock absorbers on my car for a long time, and really enjoyed it. It was great for trips over to the Nurburgring, and great on track over there

 

[DS197]

Yep, I am from Czechia. And I ride mainly roads like this (some of those locations vere also used for hillclimb races):

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Anyway, thank you very much for your advice! Changing rear shocks is most cost effective way, and we will see. Would gladly fit also some springs that sit lower at rear, but not much.
Shame that HR are like Marmite Some people says the rear is nasty and unpredictable, some says it rides lovely Without trying them out myself, I would never know

Cooksport are a good alternative to H&R.

 

[deekay16v]

So, ordered fresh cup shocks from Kam racing. Still not sure about springs, so maybe will just try new rears with original springs at first. Information about spring rates being quite inconsistent. This is what I have found here, in different posts. I hope original authors won't mind. Maybe this saves some search for others.

What Madeno are saying does not line up with other information at all. Also Eibach are once stiffer at front, once at back.
At HR I dont know whether the rate is starting or ending, being progressive. 3.8 at front looks ridicilously soft for the drop. And I cant find info about Cooksports at all. Soft and low seems to road to hell for me, will be dragging (or riding bumpstops) everywhere while braking hard to uneven turns.

The OEM factory front springs of the Clio RS are progressive, the rear springs are linear!
our front and rear springs are both progressive and will give the car a better balance,
handling, more comfort at lower shock speeds and reduces the body roll !

Spring rate OEM Clio RS factory front springs: progressive 28 N/mm up to 40 N/mm
Spring rate OEM Clio RS F1-R27-Cup front springs : progressive 40 N/mm up to 60 N/mm
Spring rate Madeno Racing springs Clio RS : progressive 32 N/mm up to 50 N/mm

Spring rate OEM Clio RS factory rear springs : linear 48 N/mm
Spring rate OEM Clio RS F1-R27-Cup rear springs : linear 67 N/mm
Spring rate Madeno Racing rear springs : progressive 45 N/mm up to 62 N/mm

Together with our springs we also want to recommand another kind of bump stops
for the front axle, the original bump stops are too stiff, the car will hit the original front
bumps under (hard) braking.

The front suspension block too easy at the stiff OEM front bump stops and the rear of
the car becomes very twisty in the mean time.









STND CUP FRONT - 224.8 lb/in (4.02kg/mm)
STND CUP REAR - 260 lb/in (4.65kg/mm)


H&R FRONT – 211 lbs/inch (3.8kg/mm)
H&R REAR – 302 lbs/inch (5.4kg/mm)
30mm drop F&R


WHITELINE FRONT – 263.1 (4.7kg/mm)
WHITELINE REAR – 347.1 lbs/inch (6.2kg/mm)
15mm front. 20mm rear


GRAMS FRONT - 251lb/in (4.5kg/mm)
GRAMS REAR - 51N/mm, 291lb/in, 5.2kg/mm
30mm F&R


EIBACH FRONT – 182-308 lbs/in (3.2-5.5 kg/mm)
EIBACH REAR – 154-257 lbs/in (2.7-4.6 kg/mm)
15MM FRONT 25MM REAR





200 Standard Springs
Front: 144.5 lb/in (25.3 N/mm)
Rear: 215 lb/in (37.6 N/mm)

200 Cup Springs
Front: 224.8 lb/in ( 39.4 N/mm)
Rear: 260 lb/in (45.5 N/mm)

Eibach
Front: 27-45 N/mm
Rear: 32-54 N/mm

HR (Springs):
Front: 37 N/mm
Rear: 53 N/mm

KW Clubsports:
Front: 70 N/mm
Rear: 80 N/mm
(60 N/mm helper springs front and rear)

KW V1 & V3
Front: 50 N/mm
Rear: 50 N/mm

H&R Coilovers
Front: 80 N/mm
Rear: 80 N/mm

AST Coilovers
Front: 100 N/mm
Rear: 110 N/mm

X85 Cup Racer
Front: 75 N/mm
Rear: 130 N/mm

R3 Access
Front: 71 N/mm
Front: 74 N/mm
Rear: 55 N/mm
Rear: 58 N/mm

 

[deekay16v]

Well, I have chosen Eibachs in the end and I have to say after some rides, that it was a huge mistake for my driving style.
Everything works nice, and fluffy until you get a car to any significant speed and try to change direction. For general driving, I would say its ok, but that is not what I look for in my clio. Worst thing is switching the car between faster sweepers and try to work with the center of gravity. Basically you put the car into the turn...it turns but after the suspension loads up after while it suddenly turns more...all without turning steering wheel.

It is faster and has better turn in at slow speeds but I am definitely not the fan for the more aggresive driving I also lack a feel what I am driving on a bit, compared to CUP springs. Looks like another springs swap... my trusty local garage would "love" me

So beware buyers of this behavior.

PS: Shocks are all brand new CUP ones and car is powerflexed all round (except swaybars).

 

[turkie172]

Sounds like maybe a suspension issue if you turn in and it turns more then the anti rotation links in my case it was the lower ball joint on one side was bad. The only other thing if you changed everything then there is so much adjustment in the top mounts and lower arms might be good to get the alignment checked if the top mounts have been in and out. Also the KYB fitting video shows two rubber squares that align with the outside of the shock when fitting at about the 3.40 minute mark in the video

Ball joint thread

 

[deekay16v]

I dont think there is something wront TBH. Lets see when I swap original springs back. All link were new like 5000km ago, as well as top mounts and fronts shocks. Now we have only powerflexed front wishbones (checked ball joints and everything ok without play) and changed springs to Eibach. Alignment have been done after.

I would describe the sensation I have as driving on underinflated tires )) The initial stroke is really soft, front and rear. When you start to turn at speed the soft part of spring starts to compress and as the lateral force continues to rise then it hits the harder part of the spring and it loads tire more to have more grip and it turns a bit sharper. Its totally consistent, does not matter turning left or right. And yes, i have ben playing with tire pressure too but I cannot mitigate this with it.
Maybe somebody will like that "playful" character, I hate it

btw, some guy at german forum made the same change and find the cup suspension better at high speeds at nordschleife, than Eibach. Eibach having better grip at lower speeds. Seems like the same opinion as mine.

 

[RSRowe]

It’s crazy that you’re getting this much feedback from road driving.
You’re like a Czech Schumacher

 

[deekay16v]

Plenty of roads with very low to no traffic here Especially on weekend mornings. Lazy Czechs are sleeping

 

[Spect]

I dont think there is something wront TBH. Lets see when I swap original springs back. All link were new like 5000km ago, as well as top mounts and fronts shocks. Now we have only powerflexed front wishbones (checked ball joints and everything ok without play) and changed springs to Eibach. Alignment have been done after.

I would describe the sensation I have as driving on underinflated tires )) The initial stroke is really soft, front and rear. When you start to turn at speed the soft part of spring starts to compress and as the lateral force continues to rise then it hits the harder part of the spring and it loads tire more to have more grip and it turns a bit sharper. Its totally consistent, does not matter turning left or right. And yes, i have ben playing with tire pressure too but I cannot mitigate this with it.
Maybe somebody will like that "playful" character, I hate it

btw, some guy at german forum made the same change and find the cup suspension better at high speeds at nordschleife, than Eibach. Eibach having better grip at lower speeds. Seems like the same opinion as mine.

Hi deekay16v
so you consider the eibachs a step down from the cup springs?
And in terms of comfort, do you prefer eibach or do you prefer cup?