New Exhaust & remap

[DANDAN]

Hi all,

I am new to the forum and have recently just bought a 197 as a small project bit of fun . I have tried to look at all the treads/posts about the flat spot between 1500-3/4000RPM and exhausts but I seem to be looking for hours on end and not getting a definitive answer :nope:. I am aware that a remap would iron out the flat spots.
I have been looking at a cat-back system, them a map. Question for me is, do I need to fit a de-cat or sports cat to get more power or is just the cat-back enough? What are the advantages of a sports cat?

 

[CallorFold]

As far as I understand it, you can buy the Akrapovic (full system) and not get the flat spot although this system comes with a fairly hefty price tag....and you might still want it remapped afterwards anyway.

The alternatives are a cat back exhaust + remap

or sports cat + cat back exhaust + remap to free up a little more. The sports cat just makes the system a little more free-flowing (less restriction).

As for specific numbers, it's not something I've done myself so I couldn't say.

 

[Chris]

Your not going to notice many gains by decatting the car, just going to be a lot louder.

Basically if you chop the centre silencer and the cat your likely to get a flatspot, which a remap will sort. Depends what you want really, the sports cat is just a less restrictive cat really compared to oem, not many people fit them (also as they are expensive).

As above, akrapovic is the best system, removes the cat but doesnt really cause many issues with flat spots. And the car should still pass emissions test with the precat in place in the manifold..

 

[TB Rich]

You're not really going to see many gains unless you remove either of the cats tbh. If you go cat back then just buy it for the noise and a couple of hp at the most.

Couple of power graphs with a before and after with an Akrapovic Evo system which of course ditches the main cat, decent gains in the midrange.

(note the scale on this one is Kw and Nm)

This is a graph from a user in the RR thread - Stock vs K-tec cat-back + 200cell sports cat.

 

[DANDAN]

Thanks for feedback guys.

I'm presuming if I fitted a cat back with a sports cat I would see more gains???

 

[TB Rich]

Thanks for feedback guys.

I'm presuming if I fitted a cat back with a sports cat I would see more gains???

That's what the last graph is and very minimal gains. There maybe other back to back graphs but none I can recall seeing specifically on here. It's inline with expectations though as unless you ditch a cat (and map for it) then you won't expect to gain much ever.

 

[CallorFold]

Just be aware that whatever you change, it wont result in huge gains

The Clio breathing system is pretty good as standard, by changing the panel filter, exhaust, CAT and remapping, we're still talking a realistic +15 bhp max here.

Remember, its an NA not a Turbo - whole different world of tuning in which you'll never see +30bhp from simple Stage 1/2 mods

 

[DANDAN]

Yeah I was only thinking max 10-20hp increase with cat-back, sports cat & map. with the NA engine.

What are the other potential mods without spending ridiculous £££? Is there not any throttle body kits out there for the 197?

 

[PAUL JA]

I think Chris gained about 8 ponies with the Akrapovic / panel filter and remap. He's just added / Ktec induction / cams / RST remap and is up to about 199.

You have to work hard and spend hard to get power out of these things !!!!

 

[DannyAG200]

This bugs me, everyone claims the akra overpriced.. heres my theory
£1000 for akra that removes the 2nd cat, most gorgeous sound, nice and deep not tingy and raspy, nice carbon tips and the brand.. no map required
say what £500 for a cat back, then ontop you got to decat (£80?) or sports cat (£200+?), then buy carbon tips (£80) oh and car runs terrible and ruins flexis with the juddering of engine so a remap is required(£250+?).. so look at things that way and you will see that the akra isnt actually bad priced at all for the 'package' you receive when paying for the akrapovic. sorry just gets to me sometimes

 

[The ANT]

This bugs me, everyone claims the akra overpriced.. heres my theory
£1000 for akra that removes the 2nd cat, most gorgeous sound, nice and deep not tingy and raspy, nice carbon tips and the brand.. no map required
say what £500 for a cat back, then ontop you got to decat (£80?) or sports cat (£200+?), then buy carbon tips (£80) oh and car runs terrible and ruins flexis with the juddering of engine so a remap is required(£250+?).. so look at things that way and you will see that the akra isnt actually bad priced at all for the 'package' you receive when paying for the akrapovic. sorry just gets to me sometimes

I fitted the precautions and would only fit the precautions if I got another, that was manifold back and removed the pointless second exhaust exit, and I lovedthe sounds it made.

 

[sevenfourate]

I'm in for remap Mon. Im NOT interested in screwing every last HP out of it (Especially if right at top-end and unusable 70% of the time) and if i could / have to: would more than be willing to swap a few HP for more torque, some extra drive-ability and "perfect fuelling". This is what i'd INTENDED on telling them when i get there Monday.

However......just spoken to a friend of mine who's got an Evo, a Tuned Type R and a track-car of some sort and told him i was getting re-map and he said: "Decent mapper should get you both". ie: driveability AND power.

Feasible ? Possible ? Plausible ?


*****I'm presuming he'll ask my thoughts and what im looking for anyway. If not i will be telling him !!!

 

[Chris]

You wont really get a lot of power out these cars on a remap...

Just usually makes them more linear in terms of power delivery.

 

[rsevo]

My 200 booked in for aka Evo system and remap, I have itg panel filter also I'm interested see what graph is when Rs tuning finished compared how standard car is now....

 

[sevenfourate]

My 200 booked in for aka Evo system and remap, I have itg panel filter also I'm interested see what graph is when Rs tuning finished compared how standard car is now....

Thats cool, So you havn't had your exhaust fitted yet .... and can get a true "before" and "after" comparison ?

Kinda wish i'd have somehow got a baseline figure before adding exhaust / filter.........So i could then get a comparison after mapping.

When you booked in for ?

 

[rsevo]

29th bud, long drive from Isle of Wight to Leeds so making small break away for few days, can't wait now, keep watching YouTube clips. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g0056bUch7E this my favourite

 

[sevenfourate]

29th bud, long drive from Isle of Wight to Leeds so making small break away for few days, can't wait now, keep watching YouTube clips. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g0056bUch7E this my favourite

I hear yer.......that trip = commitment ! Have a good few days away in that case.

Only a few days after me then; im the 20th. And iv'e only got 70 miles each way to Engine Dynamics, Essex.


I cant wait like you. I've had a car rolling roaded for power figures before, but never mapped. Gonna be interesting if nothing else

 

[TB Rich]

However......just spoken to a friend of mine who's got an Evo, a Tuned Type R and a track-car of some sort and told him i was getting re-map and he said: "Decent mapper should get you both". ie: driveability AND power.

Feasible ? Possible ? Plausible ?


*****I'm presuming he'll ask my thoughts and what im looking for anyway. If not i will be telling him !!!

Tuning N/A engines then yes 100% you get both, if the tuner asks you for either then walk away because he's a **** basically.

3 main ingredients to mapping this engine, first 2 are fuel and igintion and there is an optimum injector pulse width and an optimum amount of ignition advance for any given load and rpm site, this is the same in the midrange as it is at the top end and neither precludes the other from being achieved. The last ingredient is the VVT on the inlet cam, this is fully variable on this engine so again can be phased in or out for optimum during the whole rpm range.

The only time an N/A engine can be tailored this was is when swinging a non-variable cam. So for example if you had a vernier pulley on the exhaust cam and you were swinging it a few degrees each way. But you're not talking much more than rocking the power band up or down by around 500 rpm. Again optimum fuel and ignition mapping across the whole rpm and load ranges can be achieved with out compromise.

Remember too that this is EFI and not carbs where you jet for a single rpm band and the rest suffers


Now turbo cars are a whole different ball game, and I believe there's weird and wonderful ways of bringing on boost differently and bleeding waste gates etc that do give a mapper the scope to have a strong midrange at the expense of top end etc. However I know little about this because turbos bore the **** out of me frankly!

 

[sevenfourate]

Tuning N/A engines then yes 100% you get both, if the tuner asks you for either then walk away because he's a **** basically.

3 main ingredients to mapping this engine, first 2 are fuel and igintion and there is an optimum injector pulse width and an optimum amount of ignition advance for any given load and rpm site, this is the same in the midrange as it is at the top end and neither precludes the other from being achieved. The last ingredient is the VVT on the inlet cam, this is fully variable on this engine so again can be phased in or out for optimum during the whole rpm range.

The only time an N/A engine can be tailored this was is when swinging a non-variable cam. So for example if you had a vernier pulley on the exhaust cam and you were swinging it a few degrees each way. But you're not talking much more than rocking the power band up or down by around 500 rpm. Again optimum fuel and ignition mapping across the whole rpm and load ranges can be achieved with out compromise.

Remember too that this is EFI and not carbs where you jet for a single rpm band and the rest suffers


Now turbo cars are a whole different ball game, and I believe there's weird and wonderful ways of bringing on boost differently and bleeding waste gates etc that do give a mapper the scope to have a strong midrange at the expense of top end etc. However I know little about this because turbos bore the **** out of me frankly!

Informative and very helpful Rich. I've played with and re-jetted many a simple carb on single cylinder 4-stroke motorbikes. So not the pinnacle of fueling - BUT: i understand where your coming from in comparison to EFi.

Engine Dynamics have a great reputation right now and i'm sure it will all be excellent. Just wanted an idea of if i needed to stipulate my wants / needs - or if indeed "everything" should be possible on the same map.

Thanks again. Great post.

 

[TB Rich]

Yeah Engine Dynamics do good work, should be all good!