Help me shave 6 second off my lap time

[tomislavp4]

Hello guys. I need your help shaving 6 seconds off my lap time.

I'm thinking of competing in time attack here in Sweden and am wondering if the Clio can be competitive or if I should trade it in for a Megane. Here's my best lap from last year on one of the tracks.

1:27.6 with a stock car on crappy tires and on my second trackday ever. To be competitive in the series I need to do 1:21 on the same track. I think I can shave .6 by improving my driving skills but that still leaves 6 seconds so I want suggestions on what mods I should do.

This is what's allowed:

Transmission
-LSDs are allowed
-Lightened flywheels are allowed
-Race clutches are allowed

Brakes
-Discs can be changed but not to ceramic ones
-Pads can be changed
-Steel brake lines may be used

Intake/Exhaust
-Intake may be freely modified
-Exhaust may be modified as long as a cat is used and the drive-by loudness is under 95 db

Tires
-High performance tyres only, semi-slicks are not allowed
-Tire dimension is free as long as they don’t protrude from the bodywork

Bodywork/Interior
-Lightweight hood may be fitted
-A diffuser may be mounted if it doesn't protrude from the car
-A wing may be mounted if it doesn't protrude from the car
-Interior bits can be removed if they're in the way of safety equipment I.e. roll cage

I've already fitted B14 and I'm thinking of getting AD08R's soon. I'm thinking this should equal to 2-2,5 seconds. What would you do next if you were in my shoes?

 

[Dmonk197]

you answered your own question- tires is probably the best and only upgrade you should do next- lots of time to be saved if you get track tires.

 

[Alex Ford]

I'd say AD08R's, a good track set up on the brakes maybe? PBS pads or DS2500 with a grooved disc, HEL braided lines and some good fluid. Shed some weight here and there and look at the niggly stuff- tyre pressures, camber n toe for a good setup. Then look at your times and go from there.

 

[tomislavp4]

@Dmonk197 Yes. I plan on fitting AD08R's and doing another trackday to see how much they're worth together with the B14's. Hoping for 2,5 seconds but we'll see.

@Alex Ford right now I have some yellow stuff waiting to be fitted so we'll see how they do. I know they're not exactly race-pads but I ordered them months before I started thinking of competing. Discs, lines and fluid are still stock though so will look into those.

When it comes to weight reduction, I'm not allowed to strip the interior. I can fit bucket seats and remove the rear seats but only if I fit a cage. Should save me, what, 40 kg?

Thinking the next best thing after tires will be an LSD actually.

 

[Sean197]

Change the B14's for something more track-oriented, like ASTs or even Cup-racer Bilsteins, the B14's are far too soft for all-out track use. Couple them with adjustable top mounts, and shim the rear to your preference (toe-in or toe-out depending on how much you want the rear to move around). Cams, remap, and an Akrapovic exhaust should get you some more power. Some Carbon Lorraine brake pads and some braided brake lines will help with the braking.
I take it forced induction is out of the question?

 

[tomislavp4]

Thank you for your input @Sean197 I bought the B14's with trackdays in mind, so yeah, not quite the right tool for the job but I'm a bit reluctant to sell them 8 months after I bought them. Maybe I'll have to, we'll see.

Forced induction is definitely out of the question and so are cams although I wonder how they'll know if someone has fitted cams. Take the engine apart before the race? Seems like a rule they cannot enforce.

Adjustable top-mounts are not allowed either in the lowest class.

 

[Sean197]

Thank you for your input @Sean197 I bought the B14's with trackdays in mind, so yeah, not quite the right tool for the job but I'm a bit reluctant to sell them 8 months after I bought them. Maybe I'll have to, we'll see.

Forced induction is definitely out of the question and so are cams although I wonder how they'll know if someone has fitted cams. Take the engine apart before the race? Seems like a rule they cannot enforce.

Adjustable top-mounts are not allowed either in the lowest class.

In that case, 'proper' suspension and brakes are the way to go then. What about weight, are you allowed to remove interior trim?

 

[tomislavp4]

In that case, 'proper' suspension and brakes are the way to go then. What about weight, are you allowed to remove interior trim?

I can replace the front seats with bucket seats which will save some weight. The rest of the interior should be left as it was from the factory unless it's in the way of the cage (if there is one) so removing the rear seats is possible but then I have to fit a half-cage.

 

[Sean197]

I can replace the front seats with bucket seats which will save some weight. The rest of the interior should be left as it was from the factory unless it's in the way of the cage (if there is one) so removing the rear seats is possible but then I have to fit a half-cage.

well a rear cage would improve rear rigidity so I'd say it would be worth removing the rear seats and fitting a cage.

 

[tomislavp4]

well a rear cage would improve rear rigidity so I'd say it would be worth removing the rear seats and fitting a cage.

Yes indeed, will be quite useful if something unexpected happens as well. But it won't save me any weight because the weight saved from removing the seats will be offset by the weight of the cage.

 

[Sean197]

Yes indeed, will be quite useful if something unexpected happens as well. But it won't save me any weight because the weight saved from removing the seats will be offset by the weight of the cage.

I meant the handling benefit would be worth the extra weight.

 

[PAUL JA]

As stated above -

Tyres - we rate the Pirelli P zero road tyre
AST's, Clubsports, Cup Racer Bilsteins
Decent disks with RS29 or DS1.11 or PB s pads
Braided brake lines and fluid
LSD (go plated if you can live with it)
Replace front seats

All the above will help to reduce times

However best bang for buck - one to one tuition, one days tuition and you'll be a totally different driver

 

[peter]

the 1.21 target, is that ever achieved with a clio?
i'd try to get a 'pro' driver in your car and see what time there is in your current set up.

 

[Yiannis197]

Hi Tomi,

How competitive is this time attack and with what kind of cars you would be racing against? Also, how easy you can get your hands on a Megane and how much do they cost in your country? These are all important variables. If laptimes is what you are looking for at I'd say go for a Megane hands down unless of course it's crazy money. But remember, 6 seconds is not easy.

To shave time and in order of appearance;

1. Tuition. The best thing you can do by far.
2. Tuition. The best thing you can do by far.
3. Tuition. The best thing you can do by far.
4. Have I mentioned tuition?
To give you an example, my mate will be racing in Caterham Academy this year and when he started training he was an ok driver. Basically he was all over the place with close to zero track experience. After several sessions with instructors and in the same car (no changes at all as it's not allowed) he is absolutely flying. In fact, he was first out of 25 cars on practice! You can not simply imagine how much grip there is out there but you need someone to show you that. There are so many thing to learn..

5. DS3000 or RC6 or RC8 or DS1.11 pads and AD08Rs. Keep the same discs, they are pretty good. 1-5 are a must do!

6. LSD (plated, obviously) if funds allow. This is an expensive upgrade, in fact you are looking close to £1500 depending how much your garage would charge. This will change the car and shove a couple of seconds easily if not more, however it's all down to diminishing returns. It might shave you 2 seconds but if I was you going racing I'd spend this money on extra tuition. Only if the instructor(s) would tell me that I reached the limits of my car, I would then be contemplating fitting a diff. That, or if I'd end up lapping in the same region as the instructors.

Hope that helps, good luck.

 

[tomislavp4]

the 1.21 target, is that ever achieved with a clio?
i'd try to get a 'pro' driver in your car and see what time there is in your current set up.

There's never been a Clio in the competition as far as I know. I like the idea of getting a pro driver in my car to see what's possible, thank you.

Hi Tomi,
How competitive is this time attack and with what kind of cars you would be racing against? Also, how easy you can get your hands on a Megane and how much do they cost in your country?

The lowest class is a big mess actually. There's everything from Fiesta ST's to Cayman S's with laptimes between 1:17 and 1:24. I'm not aiming for wins though. I want to have fun and maybe score a point or two. For that, 1:21 is fine. Meganes go for 14 000 euro and I can get 5-5500 for the clio if I trade it in. I'd rather not really.

1. Tuition. The best thing you can do by far.
2. Tuition. The best thing you can do by far.
3. Tuition. The best thing you can do by far.
4. Have I mentioned tuition?

Ok, ok! Tuition! I get it!

When it comes to price of getting a diff fitted, if it costs 1500 GBP there in the UK, it will cost 3000 here in sweden! They charge insane hour-rates here.

 

[Matt Scarbro]

Some ideas, some or most of which will have been suggested:

Plated LSD

Wide (255+ on the front) most track biased tyres you’re allowed, if AD08Rs are allowed probably these. Are you allowed to shave them? Use tyre softener? You’ll need really wide wheels too! Might require some mods to arches to accommodate.

Proper track suspension, B14s aren’t this sadly, albeit a step in the right direction.

Weight loss, sounds like there are regs but plenty can be lost around that. You allowed plastic windows and FRP panels? Do you have any weight you can lose?

Shorter gearing, get a shorter final drive on at the same time as the plated diff.

Aero, seems fairly heavily regulated but an air dam across the front and splitter running back underneath with help, even if you’re not allowed to extend the splitter forwards.

Geometry, add adjustment where necessary and get it set up to suit the tyres, car and you.

Power, whatever you can do in the rules.

Instruction, I know it’s been mentioned lots but it makes a big difference.

Certainly enough to keep you busy for a few years getting the lap times down!!

 

[tomislavp4]

Thank you for your input @Matt Scarbro Of you suggestions, what do you think are the most worthwhile ones to start with?

The AD08R's are the most track biased of the allowed tyres, more extreme tyres like Pilot Cup 2 and 595 RSR are not allowed. Has anyone successfully ran 255 tyres at the front? Wouldn't it necessitate changes in the suspension as well as widening of the bodywork?

Composite hoods are allowed, nothing else. And no, I'm not overweight, so there's not much weight I can lose

Altering the top mounts or installing adjustable ones is not allowed in the class I'm aiming for so I'm kinda stuck with the factory settings.

 

[Matt Scarbro]

I love these kind of exercises, be it doing it myself or following others, makes for interesting developments.

Honestly, unless you have a big budget and a strong desire to go and compete with frontrunners immediately, I would probably pop some AD08Rs on the current wheels, put buckets and harnesses in the front so you’re held in place well and can concentrate on driving, and remove any cheap weight.

I would also invest in a half day or day of tuition. This really is an investment in your own skill and you benefit from it every time you get in a car. The video is very impressive for your experience level, but developing your driving is a great investment. You can then learn to better understand how the car is behaving and decide from this how best to evolve the car.

A few trackdays at that circuit will also help as local knowledge is worth its weight in gold at club level.

If you want to be competitive from the get go, I’d get the instruction, some wider front wheels and tyres, coilovers with track-biased spring rates, go fairly low with the front to gain camber, rear can be shimmed so seems within rules. And it looks like a plated diff would be invaluable at that circuit so a slippy diff and shorter final drive at the same time.

Keep us updated whichever way you go, sounds like great fun!!

 

[tomislavp4]

Honestly, unless you have a big budget and a strong desire to go and compete with frontrunners immediately....

Nope, no budget for that. I'll need to shave 10 seconds to be able to come near the front runners! Probably cannot be done with 200 bhp whatever I throw at the chassis. The goal is to score a few points and have fun. As much fun as trackdays are, actually competing with others is 10x as fun!

​

I love these kind of exercises, be it doing it myself or following others, makes for interesting developments.

Honestly, unless you have a big budget and a strong desire to go and compete with frontrunners immediately, I would probably pop some AD08Rs on the current wheels, put buckets and harnesses in the front so you’re held in place well and can concentrate on driving, and remove any cheap weight.

Alright. That is how I was thinking of approaching this. Tyres, brakes, weight, then see how much of a difference that makes. I have 215 AD08R's incoming and I'll be putting some better pads and fluid on shortly. Planning on doing a trackday on this very track on the 9th so we'll see how much I can improve my time. The buckets will have to wait a bit but I will try to find time to remove the rear seats before the trackday. I'll keep you updated.

 

[peter]

I'll keep you updated.

please do. very curious how much progress you'll make.