Wheel spacers thoughts

[Dutch_197]

I found out my car has H&R wheel spacers, front and rear.
I felt like the car driving in a straight line is a bit nervous but responds very well to the steering and round corners.
Bushngs/ ball joints all fine, Michelin sport 4 tires in good nick too.
What are thoughts about removing them and going back to original track width?

If I remove them , will need original wheel bolts and re-alignment of the suspension so ..

 

[suj]

If they are the "bolt to hub" style, you won't need new bolts (as you bolt the spacer to the hub, then use OEM bolts to bolt wheels to the spacer), also you won't need re-alignment, it will be exactly the same with or without, it pushes the wheels further out, but doesn't affect alignment, otherwise if people run different wheels with different offset and widths, they would be constantly getting alignment done.

Just take them off, see if you prefer how it drives, if it's the same then you know something might be wrong with the car.

 

[burrellbloke]

I have spacers on all 4 wheels on my car. I prefer how the wheels fill the arches with the spacers compared to non-spacered Clios.

A lot of people run spacers on cars that have coil overs to prevent the wheels rubbing. There are arguments for and against spacers but I have yet to see anything that suggests spacers are "really bad".

How does your car feel nervous in a straight line?

 

[Dutch_197]

OK thanks, under hard acceleration the car wants to go left right a bit, even on straight tarmac (as far as that exists). The car feels perfect under turns with very little understeer, but that is why I have the car, right. Under normal driving they car goes perfectly straight. I have KW suspension, it was already fitted under the car.

When I noticed the spacers I thought this might have something to with this behavior because it is a no go under Honda because they become very nervous. Changing wheel combo , using spacers actually changes KPI and affects handling, therefor wise to have an alignment nonetheless.

Getting a new car you always wonder what previous owners did to the car, not always an improvement

 

[suj]

No, the KPI (king pin inclination) doesn't change, the scrub radius does, as the wheel moves further out this means the angle from the KPI gets bigger, but the KPI is static, like I said you do not need to get alignment done for adding or removing spacers.

Yes spacers do change the scrub radius and also it widens the track that then can exaggerate road camber / if it's not straight.
Why I said take them off and drive it again.

Mods are always one or the other, spacers can be functional (to make space from suspension etc) or just to look good, every mod has a negative effect on another application, fit stiffer springs makes track driving better, but road driving worse.

 

[Dutch_197]

OK, will try w/o spacer when I get around cleaning the brakes. Will have to check if the KW suspension clears it. Even with spacers I think the wheels are not fully on the edge of the fenders so it looks good.

 

[Dutch_197]

I just talked to one of Holland's alignment guru's and this man is considered a wizard in street and racing cars.
He gave me the advice to get rid of the spacers.

1. They will reduce self centering of the steering wheel
2. At low speeds the car will corner like a plow
3. The stress on the wheel bearings increases causing premature failure
4. MOT (Holland) will fail if the track width is increased more than 2% over original, should be noted in the car papers by the road agency. Clio 3 RS fase 1 track is 1520 MM Rear/Front so maximum of 15.2mm on both sides is allowed. Mine are well over (H&R)

Other than that he said that all Clio's with this type of rear suspension are faulty from factory but he will try and work his magic.
First have to get some fresh rubber up front, the are 3mm and not in the best shape.

 

[Dutch_197]

I was disturbed while typing my message so I will continue

5. The spacers will act like rims with lower offset (ET Einpress Tiefe) changing the scrub radius (like Suj correctly stated, have been dealing with this issue with my old Honda's in the past as well), the problem with this that it might change the negative scrub radius into positive (imaginary lines meet below the imaginary road surface) causing the wheels to be pushed outwards under breaking​

6. the above changes the momentum on the wheel suspension geometry significant in cornering​

​

Will take them off shortly, the car has been in storage past 6 months.​

 

[John Gordon]

I just talked to one of Holland's alignment guru's and this man is considered a wizard in street and racing cars.
He gave me the advice to get rid of the spacers.

1. They will reduce self centering of the steering wheel
2. At low speeds the car will corner like a plow
3. The stress on the wheel bearings increases causing premature failure
4. MOT (Holland) will fail if the track width is increased more than 2% over original, should be noted in the car papers by the road agency. Clio 3 RS fase 1 track is 1520 MM Rear/Front so maximum of 15.2mm on both sides is allowed. Mine are well over (H&R)

Other than that he said that all Clio's with this type of rear suspension are faulty from factory but he will try and work his magic.
First have to get some fresh rubber up front, the are 3mm and not in the best shape.

I've had 25mm spacers on my 197 for the last 6 years. Not failed an APK once.

 

[Dutch_197]

That is because they usually don't check for it because they don't know.
Had that with a tie rib for my brake lines, had to wait for special brackets but needed to have the APK but is was "fine" because "properly attached" haha

 

[burrellbloke]

I am sure that the advice you have been given is correct but most people on this forum like to modify their car and push it beyond the manufacturers limits. I have a different suspension set up. More negative camber. A lower ride height. My brake discs and pads are different. Etc., etc.

My car has 20mm spacers on the front and back and I have not noticed any issues so far. My car has been on track days with 20mm spacers and wheels with an offset of ET68. I have also taken the spacers off and used wheels with an offset of ET40.

We are fortunate in the UK to have a government mandated car check called an MOT that looks at the road worthiness of a car and they are not concerned by modifications to the OEM spec.

For what it is worth I really have no idea if the spacers negatively impact on the handling of my car - if they do I have not noticed so far.

 

[deekay16v]

I have made some observation on my clio.
At first I have added 10mm rear stub axle spacer on each side. Car started to understeer a bit. Mitigated by added more presure to rear tires compared to front. It made car bit unstable in higher speed line changes (like high speed moose test - 130kph or so).
Tried to add 16mm spacers to front wheels, so my front track is a bit wider then rear. I can lower rear tire pressure, car is way more stable and still goes round corners. No lift off oversteer but you can trailbrake with left foot info turns.
Just to add, I am on stock cup suspension and stock geometry.
So i have now 1552 F and 1540 R track. Clio CUP has 1560 F and 1541 R, according to specssheet.
So far i like it, lets see what comes in the future.

btw rallye clio R3 acces runs ET51 turinis and i dont think it turns like a plow

 

[John Gordon]

When I first bought my Clio the spacers were the only mod the car had on it. I took them off to start with as I'd read all the forum chatter about geometry and advanced strain on bearings and bushes.
Within a week I'd put them back on simply because it looked daft without them with the wheels so deep in the wheel wells.
I asked Madeno about the spacers when they corner weighted the car after the suspension work and was told they are fine, so they stayed.

 

[Trackerman]

I recently acquired earlier this year a factory 200 Cup with the only mods on the whole car being a set of hubcentric spacers. As I had no comparison the car handled absolutely brilliant with no cause for concern and as close to my old Dc2 Type R integra as I've ever got in terms of handling. During it's first visit to a workshop for a full service and check over the spigot on one of the spacers had failed and came off with the wheel (I wont name the spacer brand but they are a top end manufacturer not cheap eBay ones) with that failure I had to remove the other 3 and return the car back to 100% stock. When the wheels were back on the car and the suspension settled I struggled to adapt to the sunken wheel look and was on the verge of ordering a set of Pure Motorsport ones as they were recommend by the garage tech as a replacement but he advised to keep them off as the car will be the better for it. So before I checked out on Pure Motorsports website I thought I would take the car out for a spirited B road drive to see if there is any difference in the handling characteristics It would be interesting to see how a fully stock 200 cup drives and if the spacers make a difference other than the visual aspect. All I can say is I was gobsmacked at just how better the car felt without the spacers, the turn in is so much more crisp and the steering wheel responds to the slightest bit of input. As I said earlier with the spacers on the car felt as close to the Dc2 as anything I've owned previous but now IMO it has surpassed it. The negatives are all in the looks of the car but the positives are the way the car now feels on the road which surpass the visuals as that's what these cars are all about.

 

[LiamP]

+1 to above, I spent an entire morning at Brands testing variations and taking them off was the only way I could get the car moving and feeling the way I wanted.

No question that the mk3 needs 20mm to look the part, once lowered and with camber you can’t even see the top of my wheels.

 

[Dutch_197]

OK, tonight I removed the spacers, the rear ones were bolted on and pain in the ass to remove, guess the guy who fitted them never heared of anti seize grease.
Anyway I had to remove the bolts with a big iron breaker bar and the spacers with a pulley puller. I quickly discovered the front bolts were way too long to use without the spacers but a quick measurement of front and rear bolts, which have different lengths, I figured out it would work to swap them. And ofcourse letting the wheels spin round to check if all cleared the suspension/brakes.

Q: what is the normal bolt length supplied with RS? I suppose the short ones are the correct ones, in the rear I now have thread sticking out 20 mm or so (just optical looks weird). Also the weird thing is the short and long bolts have a different socket, 17 and 19mm, so one of them is not OEM.

OK for the road test, this is most important. Since the car is lowered on KW suspension I did a maximum steer in and bump test to make sure nothing would rub prior to do some serious driving. Nothing rubs. OK this is what I found:

• steering is much lighter when you want to drive out of the parking and at really low speeds (feels like Twingo GT lol)
• at roundabouts and tight corners at medium speeds the car is much more precise
• no swabbing when shifting at full throttle, braking or low speeds, which was very annoying at uneven pavement
• no shudder in the steer after full accelerations, I was thinking there was a problem with inner CV joint, but it is gone
• very neutral steering on twisty backroads with about 70% tarmac condition, the car is so much more predictable

This is what the french engineers had in mind, 200 ps, neutral car, built for French rural roads to have fun with loads of mid range power, this car is good, the alignment will make it even better I am sure.

I would say spacers make the car look better, for sure, and maybe benefit if used in a moderate thickness, but the ones I had?
25mm rear / 17mm front? No way..

 

[John Gordon]

Surprised by the difference you're all feeling without the spacers, I didn't feel such a drastic difference. Probably says more about and my driving level though.

 

[deekay16v]

OK, tonight I removed the spacers, the rear ones were bolted on and pain in the ass to remove, guess the guy who fitted them never heared of anti seize grease.
Anyway I had to remove the bolts with a big iron breaker bar and the spacers with a pulley puller. I quickly discovered the front bolts were way too long to use without the spacers but a quick measurement of front and rear bolts, which have different lengths, I figured out it would work to swap them. And ofcourse letting the wheels spin round to check if all cleared the suspension/brakes.

Q: what is the normal bolt length supplied with RS? I suppose the short ones are the correct ones, in the rear I now have thread sticking out 20 mm or so (just optical looks weird). Also the weird thing is the short and long bolts have a different socket, 17 and 19mm, so one of them is not OEM.

OK for the road test, this is most important. Since the car is lowered on KW suspension I did a maximum steer in and bump test to make sure nothing would rub prior to do some serious driving. Nothing rubs. OK this is what I found:

• steering is much lighter when you want to drive out of the parking and at really low speeds (feels like Twingo GT lol)
• at roundabouts and tight corners at medium speeds the car is much more precise
• no swabbing when shifting at full throttle, braking or low speeds, which was very annoying at uneven pavement
• no shudder in the steer after full accelerations, I was thinking there was a problem with inner CV joint, but it is gone
• very neutral steering on twisty backroads with about 70% tarmac condition, the car is so much more predictable

This is what the french engineers had in mind, 200 ps, neutral car, built for French rural roads to have fun with loads of mid range power, this car is good, the alignment will make it even better I am sure.

I would say spacers make the car look better, for sure, and maybe benefit if used in a moderate thickness, but the ones I had?
25mm rear / 17mm front? No way..

Having rear wider, than front feels crappy and understeery for me. It was also mentioned few times on german cliors forum.

 

[burrellbloke]

Surprised by the difference you're all feeling without the spacers, I didn't feel such a drastic difference. Probably says more about and my driving level though.

Same here.

I am Anglesey soon and might take a set of standard cup wheels with track tyres on and see if I like the handling without the spacers.

 

[Trackerman]

As I put in my post I had no comparison, if the spigot on one of my spacers hadn't failed I wouldn't have removed as I was more than happy with the way it drove and handled. I 100% noticed the difference with them removed, It would've been interesting from my perspective if I were to have done it the other way around and fitted the spacers myself to notice a negative effect to OEM set up.