Oil Cooler - Accusump?

[Daz7]

I had the misfortune of seizing an engine on track last year in my RS200.

An exceptionally hot day combined with a high G corner produced what sounded like bad bearing noise, pottered back to the pits and once stopped found the engine seized.

I didn't get to see what the issue was, but informed it was oil starvation or oil pump failure.

Have since had a new engine fitted and don't want to go through this again.

I feel it needs oil temp and pressure gauges combined with an oil cooler at a minimum, but am thinking, maybe an accusump might not be a bad idea as well.

Has anyone had experience with fitting any of these to a Clio?

 

[steve11]

Hi Daz,
I looked into the accusumps from Canton http://accusump.com/accusump_units.html some time ago (2 quart version), but decided an oil/air separator was enough for my needs.
I don't think an oil cooler is going to be a great help on the n/a F4R. I ran a Serck cooler on my track STI but only because of the high temps the turbo generated (it ran 28pounds of boost).
There is a guy up here running an Accusump on his MG track car & he says its a great bit of kit.
I'd say go with a separator & change the oil regularly (i'm sure you do anyway) or bite the bullet & go with an accusump. There is room to mount the 2 quart version on the d/side inner guard & all the fittings were available when I looked. They are not cheap once you get all the bits & pieces needed but they reportedly do work.
Here is a pic of my separator which definitely works sufficiently to justify fitting one.

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[Trophymad]

You don't need anything mate just the right oil the right amount of it you have just been unlucky the clio cup race car uses the std oil std rad std heat exchanger std sump and they race in hot countries like Italy and Spain no problems and pull plenty of G

 

[Raptor6767]

Here is a pic of my separator which definitely works sufficiently to justify fitting one.

Can you elaborate more? Was thinking about fitting one myself.

 

[steve11]

Can you elaborate more? Was thinking about fitting one myself.

Don't wish to hijack Daz' thread so briefly...
I assume you know what an A/O separator does so I won't go into that but I regularly find quite a bit of oil in the separator after track days (it has a sight glass) which would otherwise be going into the inlet tract.
Sorry to go off track Daz.

 

[Raptor6767]

Don't wish to hijack Daz' thread so briefly...
I assume you know what an A/O separator does so I won't go into that but I regularly find quite a bit of oil in the separator after track days (it has a sight glass) which would otherwise be going into the inlet tract.
Sorry to go off track Daz.

I was thinking more of a DIY thread/post.

 

[Daz7]

Thread drift away, would rather it be active, rather than on topic and dead.....

You don't need anything mate just the right oil the right amount of it you have just been unlucky the clio cup race car uses the std oil std rad std heat exchanger std sump and they race in hot countries like Italy and Spain no problems and pull plenty of G

Still, doing some research I come up with stuff like this in the archives from Matt Faulks @ Tour-de-force. (have sent him a email but not received a reply)

Originally Posted by Willis
Is there any worth to fitting an oil cooler (mostly road use but 4/5 trackdays per year, but this will be increasing over the next few years)? Also, there's one or two people talking about oil catch tanks recently and I've had one before on a car (fitted when purchased) but I was wondering if you think it's actually a worthwhile thing on an F4R or not? I know what they do, basically, but do you think they're actually worthwhile?

Last one... Is the 197/200 sump baffled as standard? I've read somewhere that it is but I've never had mine off to check. If it isn't, have you ever had any reason to modify one or had any instances of engines suffering with oil starvation in race conditions?

I'm sure I'll think of more questions!!!

Cheers,

Will



Standard road car and X85 runs a modine type oil/water heat exchanger. This is fine for short durations and only really puts a load on the cooling system that's not acceptable in serious use in high ambients with modified engines. However air/oil coolers are easily fitted (we do a kit) and are in use on most of our race cars and some of our highly modified road/track cars.

Oil catch tanks make good sense to avoid recirculating the engine breather into the inlet which can cause oil fouling of throttle bodies as well as lower the effective octane rating of the fuel (if the engine is breathing heavily). It's worth having one just to monitor how much the engine is breathing as it's a cheap and simple mod.

The stock sump is not baffled but has a good windage tray design and is fine to short period 1G lateral. It is not suitable for sustained high cornering G such as Mallory or similar.

As Matts suggested Steve, a catch can won't stop surge or keep oil temps from rising on one of our 40deg C days. Seems theres also been a couple of failures on Megane's on hot days on track out here too. So whilst you might be able to point blame to turbo temps on those, it seem funny that the outcome is same on the NA car in very similar circumstances. Maybe my first point of call is the do the cooler as its relatively cheap and install a gauge so at least I'm getting data instead of just going on hunches. Also thinking the hill climbs might be a lot less stress on the car than circuit work so might be good to stay with them for a bit.

 

[Raptor6767]

Did you consider changing the oil brand?

Have you tried Motul 300V 5W40? I use it in my Clio and my motorcycle (15w50) and it managed to lower the oil temp in my motorcycle (V2 1000ccm Suzuki TL1000 engine, water cooled and with the oil cooler too).

 

[steve11]

Thread drift away, would rather it be active, rather than on topic and dead.....



Still, doing some research I come up with stuff like this in the archives from Matt Faulks @ Tour-de-force. (have sent him a email but not received a reply)



As Matts suggested Steve, a catch can won't stop surge or keep oil temps from rising on one of our 40deg C days. Seems theres also been a couple of failures on Megane's on hot days on track out here too. So whilst you might be able to point blame to turbo temps on those, it seem funny that the outcome is same on the NA car in very similar circumstances. Maybe my first point of call is the do the cooler as its relatively cheap and install a gauge so at least I'm getting data instead of just going on hunches. Also thinking the hill climbs might be a lot less stress on the car than circuit work so might be good to stay with them for a bit.

Yep Daz I use the air/oil separator entirely for the purpose intended (ie keeping oil from circulating back into the inlet tract) & from my results it's definitely something worth doing.

Re the cooler or accusump, I didn't think I needed it as although my car does a lot of track work it is only on track for short periods of time such as climbs, autocross etc.
If I was still spending lots of time on track without a break such as long circuit sessions & targa stages i'd definitely have looked more seriously at doing something for the temps.
The Serck or Setrab coolers are very easy to fit with just a sandwich plate between the oil filter & block.

I think the accusump is a great solution but its also much more involved, requiring an electric circulation valve be fitted etc & gets quite expensive.
Keep in mind the standard oil pump has to do the added job of circulating more oil through the cooler/accusump which in turn puts added load on it.
Be interested to hear how you get on.

 

[Yiannis197]

I believe oil temp/oil pressure gauges are necessary for all the cars that are intended to be driven fast - just for monitoring purposes - and it is such a disappointment that the Clio hasn't got any of those. I hate aftermarker gauges that's why I haven't fitted any but I might have to go for it after all. It's that there is no obvious space to put them and A-pillar gauges are so fast and furious...

Let us know how you get along mate, oil cooler was something I was looking into a few months back, I might have to look into it again in the summer.

 

[Daz7]

I hate aftermarker gauges that's why I haven't fitted any but I might have to go for it after all. It's that there is no obvious space to put them and A-pillar gauges are so fast and furious...

Tend to agree, more research is required.... Found a reasonable combined temp/pressure gauge but where do you fit it?

With the Accusumps you can install a manual handle where in normal driving its not used, when needed on a racetrack you just turn it on. so thats the simple option, they flow in more oil when pressures drop and when they come back up again flow it back into the accusump. Theres been some discussion regarding these on a local Lotus forum as the Toyota engined 2zz cars suffer from surge and Lotus fitted an accusump to some of the Cup variants. Those that know more than I, suggest its a bandaid solution and a baffled sump is a far better option. But we can't buy a baffled sump off the shelf, so aren't left with too many options for a road/track car.

 

[The ANT]

If you look into the world of kit cars and racing them accusumps are very common(engines are often mounted at 90° to how they are in the production car to use rwd), my dad had one on his first race car 1.6 ford focus engine, since he moved to a civic type r engine they aren't nessasery as oil surge is much less of a problem.

 

[TB Rich]

If you look into the world of kit cars and racing them accusumps are very common(engines are often mounted at 90° to how they are in the production car to use rwd), my dad had one on his first race car 1.6 ford focus engine, since he moved to a civic type r engine they aren't nessasery as oil surge is much less of a problem.

<sidetrack>I heard the Honda K lumps suffer with oil surge and that's why the Elise guys who run them with r888's and yoko a048's etc all upgrade to baffled sumps!</sidetrack>