Hard to select gears

[Maidens1979]

I was on track at Croft last weekend I noticed that when I was changing up gear 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th at around max revs the gear change felt difficult to select, no crunch no noise just a feeling of resistance.
Anyone got any ideas on what could be causing this?

 

[Frank Perry]

I get the same thing - I think it's syncro issue but not 100% certain. Only from 2nd to 3rd for me... Which makes me think it's syncros as they are renowned for failing.

Perhaps someone else may have a better explanation but ultimately, put up with it, replace the box or have your box refurbed are the only options I believe...

 

[Maidens1979]

To add a little more info to my situation, the gearbox is perfectly fine when not changing up at high rpm, and the issue only arises when I’ve been either driving hard on the road for a while or say three hard laps on track.
Could it be gearbox oil not being good enough quality for this kind of driving?

 

[RSRowe]

A fluid change, and bleeding the clutch up may help.
But ultimately it’s just borrowed time as Frank says.

 

[VeiRoNv2]

I had crunch in 3rd and 4th so I tried changing to a good oil as it had very good reviews on the forum and after some driving haven't had any issues since,I do try to be careful generally anyway considering the chocolate gearbox,and this is with the ZPO too.

RED LINE MTL 75W80 75W-80 GL-4 Gear Oil Manual Transmission 1 US Quart 0.946 L 83522502092 | eBay UK

SAE Viscosity: 75W80. SAE 80 / 80W / 75W80. The secret to their success is two-fold. First, they have the appropriate coefficient of friction for most manual transmission synchronizers. Secondly, the viscosity characteristics of MTL and MT-90 allow proper shifting over the entire temperature...

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[pepinosport]

I had resistance trying to engage 6th and downshifting into 2nd with some Motul gl5 oil. Swapped back to Elf 75w and did 2 trackdays with no issues at all. Give it a try.

 

[Frank Perry]

I had crunch in 3rd and 4th so I tried changing to a good oil as it had very good reviews on the forum and after some driving haven't had any issues since,I do try to be careful generally anyway considering the chocolate gearbox,and this is with the ZPO too.

RED LINE MTL 75W80 75W-80 GL-4 Gear Oil Manual Transmission 1 US Quart 0.946 L 83522502092 | eBay UK

SAE Viscosity: 75W80. SAE 80 / 80W / 75W80. The secret to their success is two-fold. First, they have the appropriate coefficient of friction for most manual transmission synchronizers. Secondly, the viscosity characteristics of MTL and MT-90 allow proper shifting over the entire temperature...

www.ebay.co.uk

+ for this stuff! I grabbed 2 bottles, just about enough!

 

[littleg78]

I had the same thing when my engine and gearbox were standard.

I found that the clutch wasn’t fully disengaging at high rpm. I checked by stopping the car, putting it in first gear with the clutch fully depressed, then bringing up to max rpm… the car would start creeping forwards once it got up to about 6k.

I don’t know what root cause of the issue was because I swapped out to a Megane engine and gearbox!

 

[RSRowe]

I wouldn't get too focussed on the above.
It's pretty normal behaviour when you're spinning the clutch up that fast. You always get drag in the system.

 

[Kalamat88]

Hi guys, still pretty new to Clios (I have a 197) but what’s up with the transmission in these things? Why is it that the synchros are so notoriously bad?

I switched my gear oil to a thicker weight. MUCH smoother at lower RPMs but when going full throttle and shifting into 3rd and 4th, there’s a bit of a crunch. What the hell?

Other than switching clutch oil as mentioned above in a prior post, is there some work to be done to change whatever the weak “link” is in this stock set up? Different material syncros or whatever it is that is the culprit besides putting in the 200 transmission?

My car has 90,000 km and it’s a shame something like this is already happening and from what I understand, will only get worse?

 

[burrellbloke]

A 200 gearbox will do the same.

It is a known weak spot for the car. You could give it regular gearbox oil changes to prolong it's life, but that will only have a small impact.

 

[RSRowe]

Thicker oil won’t be helping, as @burrellbloke can attest to.
Stick with the standard grade.

The weak link is always going exist on these. Just treat it as a wear item as you would anything else.

 

[burrellbloke]

Thicker oil won’t be helping, as @burrellbloke can attest to.
Stick with the standard grade.

The weak link is always going exist on these. Just treat it as a wear item as you would anything else.

Yep.

 

[Kalamat88]

So basically, as soon as you add new synchros, they can go bad almost instantly once you start driving? Haha

So basically everyone is driving around with varying levels of shot synchros?

 

[RSRowe]

That’s not what I said. But they’ll certainly wear much faster with the wrong oil in the box.

 

[Frank Perry]

I think some people have had success by replacing their shifter cables and ensuring everything is tightened up after replacing their synchros... IE new engine and gearbox mounts (or powerflex inserts to stiffen up a little more). No idea if that helps, but if it's only your weekend toy then it's not a bad option to reduce movement and ensure a more precise/cleaner shift.

You could also go for one of those fancy shifters like ZPO or PMS. Not sure what they're like, but there are a lot of reviews to help you make up your mind!

 

[burrellbloke]

I have got a ZPO and I don't think that it has made any difference to the longevity of the gearbox. It is an expensive long stick, which looks very nice, but uses the same gear cables to change gear.

I think of Clio gearboxes a but like timing belts these days - like @RSRowe suggested. If you drive the car hard then expect to refurbish the gearbox every 5 years or so.

 

[Frank Perry]

Fair shout, I've never been bothered much by the standard gear shifter layout - had whacked on one of those fancy RS metal knobs and it has been fine for me. Good to know ZPO and other fancy setups don't offer any support for longevity, though!

 

[burrellbloke]

Fair shout, I've never been bothered much by the standard gear shifter layout - had whacked on one of those fancy RS metal knobs and it has been fine for me. Good to know ZPO and other fancy setups don't offer any support for longevity, though!

The PMS shifter uses a metal linkage instead of gear cables.

The synchros are the problem and rushing them at higher revs will cause them to wear faster.

Rev matching on gear changes may help with some mechanical sympathy for the gearbox.

 

[Kalamat88]

That’s not what I said. But they’ll certainly wear much faster with the wrong oil in the box.

Even with heavier weight oil? I’m not sure how to make sense of that. Not doubting you, I just don’t understand how it wouldn’t “pad” the gears just a bit more. I just drove once with the new stuff; admittedly with hotter weather, so it’ll be interesting to see how it goes long term. I feel a lot better there’s at least fresh oil in there. Next time, I’ll put the lighter weight in and compare and I do plan to change it very often.

Very interesting stuff guys, thanks for the wisdom. Besides ringing it out from the toll both once a month, mine does see a lot of rev matching on the highway with modest pulls. I do “baby” it despite it being a sports car.

Also, I suppose there’s not anything “correct” about anything that has to do with the synchros- even the synchros itself from what it sounds like. An inherent flaw that I’ll start approaching like RSRowe mentioned. It is a toy used for long trips and rarely to the grocery store and I’ll do what Frank mentioned and one day replace everything at once (synchros, linkage,bushings).

Interesting to know even the 200’s have this issue- I thought I read where some fortunate few with the wherewithal swapped it out not only for the optimal gearing, but also the more dependable synchros. So we’ll go ahead and rule out that expensive option!