Gauging interest in a Custom Bilstein Group buy. 197/200

[John Gordon]

Hi All,

Firstly, a little about myself as I am new to the forum. My name's John (if you hadn't already guessed). 34. Moved to Amsterdam 5 years ago. Huge hot hatch fan. Used to rally 205 GTI's back in the UK. Got into track-days as I don't have the time or money to build and compete with rally cars any more. Owned a Phase 1 Clio RS for the last 3-4 years. Loved it. Paid €2000 for it and proceeded to spunk another €10k on it on maintenance and general tinkering (three different suspension set-ups over my ownership). Diff bearings went, and as it had 240,000 KM's on the clock, i decided it was time to say goodbye.

I recently purchased this....








I have not actually picked it up yet. Head to Vegas on Saturday, then I'l collect it when I return on the 22nd.

The 197 will stand most of the time, but it will serve as a tool for my new obsession. The Nurbergring. Living in Amsterdam its a 3 hour drive, the old 172 made a few trips there, and I also rented a Suzuki swift sport from Rent4Ring. This is where I learned the importance of proper suspension. The Swift had a full Ohlins setup, and it was sublime.


This is where the group buy comes in.

I found a local(ish) company called Madeno Racing. I wont post links as I don't want to be accused of advertising.

But to keep it shor they have a range of suspension setups for the 197/200 based on the Bilstein b14 setup.

All kits are hand built, dyno tested and can be tailored to your needs. They have a longer stroke than the standard b14 kits. They even do a clubsport pack which has coilover rears with a unique topmount (pic below, although olihins damper shown)

Would there be any interest at all. This is high end so not super cheap. There are prices on their website. So you can get a rough idea. As each kit is hand made we wont be bound to a single set-up, but the more orders, the cheaper.


Rear topmount with an Ohlins damper.



Fitted



Bilstein rear damper





Any questions feel free to ask, if I don't know the answer I will ask Leo. If there are a few serious buyers out there we could get a nice little discount.

John

 

[John Gordon]

Some more detail.

BMR14 Stage 3. Clubsport
Front: McPherson front struts with upside-down technology, 40mm clubsport valved dampers, Eibach ERS linear main springs, lightweight aluminum camber adjustable topmounts equipped with spherical bearings.
Rear: rear beam fitted progressive springs, 36mm clubsport valved dampers.



BMR14 Stage 4. Clubsport
Front: McPherson front struts with upside-down technology, 40mm clubsport valved dampers, Eibach ERS linear main springs, lightweight aluminum camber adjustable topmounts equipped with spherical bearings.
Rear: rear beam fitted Eibach ERS linear main and helper springs, spring platforms, ride height adjusters. 36mm clubsport valved dampers.


BMR14 Stage 5. clubsport
Front: McPherson front struts with upside-down technology, 40mm clubsport valved dampers, Eibach ERS linear main springs, lightweight aluminum camber adjustable topmounts equipped with spherical bearings.
Rear: full coilover system, threaded rear dampers equipped with Eibach ERS linear main and helper springs, spring platforms, lock rings, spring perches, intermediate rings. custom designed top mounting brackets. damper mounting with spherical top & axle bearings.

 

[TB Rich]

hmmmm, what sort of discount do you think you'll get?

It's bad timing for me really because I've other bits that I need more than this, but I've been liking the look of the BMR14 & BMR200 setups, so could be tempted if the price is right.

If you are in contact with Madeno, could you find out the difference please with the BM14-stage5 and the BM200?
Also spring rates for the kits would be awesome to know, though I appreciate they are custom - they must have a 'default' they use for each of the stages?

Cheers :thumbup1:

 

[John Gordon]

Hi Rich, I can find out for you on the questions I don't know the answers to. Discounts were not discussed in detail, I told Leo I would get an idea of potential numbers before we got into the nitty gritty details. I have seen many a group buy fall by the wayside, so I din't want to talk turkey until I was confident of the numbers.

I leave for Vegas tomorrow morning. I return on the 22nd, so I'll give Leo a call when I get back and ask for you. I may forward your questions to him via email during the week. Will keep you posted.

 

[TB Rich]

Ok thanks that would be great, I'd be interested to know what they do to the B14 kit to gain the extra stroke too if possible?

My plans were exhaust and ecu before suspension, so neither are cheap and therefore it would have to be an attractive enough deal for me to move suspension ahead of those really.

Have a great trip and look forward to the update.

 

[John Gordon]

Have a great trip and look forward to the update.

[FONT=&quot]1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]How do you make thedampers longer stroke? custom modified dampertube lenght, modified rebound stop lenght, modified bump stop lenght.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]What spring ratesdo you use? (Average as I know you use custom rates) dependsof applications, fast-road & trackday use or only specific trackuse,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] kind of tracksand prefered driver setup. the spring rates for the front arebetween 60 - 80Nmm, for the rear 50 - 90Nmm (depends of the front rates[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] and if the driver want tohave over- or understeered behavior) [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]What is thedifference between the BM14-stage5 and the BM200 kits? theBMR200 Raceline sets are equipped with other pistons (full racing) and valving.[/FONT]

 

[TB Rich]

Thanks, I think Stage 4 are possibly the most appealing looking then on hardware vs price. I am def interested to see the prices but timing as mentioned is very bad. I've done the exhaust now since you went to Vegas which was £1300 and just had the builders round for quoting on the garage build. So my suspension plans are probably slightly less than non existent this year!

 

[John Gordon]

Thanks, I think Stage 4 are possibly the most appealing looking then on hardware vs price. I am def interested to see the prices but timing as mentioned is very bad. I've done the exhaust now since you went to Vegas which was £1300 and just had the builders round for quoting on the garage build. So my suspension plans are probably slightly less than non existent this year!

I know the feeling. I think I am going to go for the full stage 5. Works out at about 5k with fitting and full corner wight setup.

 

[Clarki99]

I have an interest. I am looking at B14 kit for my Clio 200 however it all depends on the price. Also I don't particularly want to be bamboozled by an array of options. I use my car for track days but I want to just rock up and drive rather than having a multi adjustable suspension that I spend all my time tinkering with.

So if they can recommend something that's not too expensive and does the job on the circuit then I might be in.

I went to Nordschlife after Spa earlier this year and got talking to a couple of guys who had had their Meganes set-up by Madeno and they couldn't speak highly enough of them.

 

[TB Rich]

I know the feeling. I think I am going to go for the full stage 5. Works out at about 5k with fitting and full corner wight setup.

5k?! If you went stg 5 thats £2.5k parts, who you having fit and corner weight for £2.5k!! Walter Rohrl?!?

I think the BMR kit makes more sense than stg 5 as there is very little difference in price. So for me I think once you go past Stage 4 just go straight to BMR? I don't think anything below Stage 4 because I don't like progressive spring rates.

Tbh though I need way more information than currently provided so as to be able to properly distinguish between the kits. There is a lot of price differnce from 4 -> 5 and as mentioned chuff all between 5 -> BMR.

 

[John Gordon]

5k?! If you went stg 5 thats £2.5k parts, who you having fit and corner weight for £2.5k!! Walter Rohrl?!?

I think the BMR kit makes more sense than stg 5 as there is very little difference in price. So for me I think once you go past Stage 4 just go straight to BMR? I don't think anything below Stage 4 because I don't like progressive spring rates.

Tbh though I need way more information than currently provided so as to be able to properly distinguish between the kits. There is a lot of price differnce from 4 -> 5 and as mentioned chuff all between 5 -> BMR.

With Dutch tax, and the fact I am paying in Euro, the total fitted and setup price works out at 4800. This is with the rear coilover.

 

[John Gordon]

I have an interest. I am looking at B14 kit for my Clio 200 however it all depends on the price. Also I don't particularly want to be bamboozled by an array of options. I use my car for track days but I want to just rock up and drive rather than having a multi adjustable suspension that I spend all my time tinkering with.

So if they can recommend something that's not too expensive and does the job on the circuit then I might be in.

I went to Nordschlife after Spa earlier this year and got talking to a couple of guys who had had their Meganes set-up by Madeno and they couldn't speak highly enough of them.

Yeah, they have a very good rep. Leo is a great guy to deal with, knows an awful lot about suspension. I made the mistake of buying cheaper kits for my Clio Ph1 RS. Ended up putting three sets of suspension on it. I want to get it right first time with the R27.

 

[TB Rich]

With Dutch tax, and the fact I am paying in Euro, the total fitted and setup price works out at 4800. This is with the rear coilover.

Ah yeah Euros for you, sorry I thought that I was replying to Clarki.

Looking at their prices though I feel like it is a bit odd. So stage 3 -> 4, the only difference is going from progessive to linear on the rear springs. Yet there is a 300euro difference!!
Progressive are usally more expensive when doing custom springs, so stage 4 should be cheaper, or really at least the same price. Certianly not more if that is the only difference?

Can I summarise the kits as:

Stage 1; B14 kit but with re-valved fronts and increased front stroke.
Stage 2; B14 kit but with re-valved front and rears, increased front stroke.
Stage 3; B14 kit but with re-valved front and rears, increased front stroke, linear front springs (odd though because B14 are linear anyway from Bilstein I heard, 60Nm/mm).
Stage 4; B14 kit but with re-valved front and rears, increased front stroke, linear front & rear springs (as above B14 are from Bilstein linear 60Nm/mm, apparently).
Stage 5; B14 fronts, re-vlaved, increased stroke, linear springs, Custom Bilstien rear coilover setup and top mount brackets.
BMR; Front, same as stage 5 but racing spec pistons and valving?? Rear, same as stage 5 but racing pistons and valving????

I think once the differences are articulated properly it'll be easier to make an informed decision as to which kit I want.... as to if I can squeeze them in with this group buy (if it happens)... who knows!

 

[John Gordon]

The price I'm quoting also comes with camber adjustable to mounts. I have a document on the laptop which was a rough quote for various different setups. I'll link it later. This was with zero discount.

 

[TB Rich]

yes forgot to list the top mounts from stg 3 onwards. But that just further adds to my point, so between stg 2 -> 3 it is only the top mounts, and yet €850 difference!

Basically the dampers and build between stg 2 -> 4 looks to be the same. Yet there is €1166 difference for some front top mounts and some 'different' (not additional) springs........ doesn't stack up in my book. There is no reason at all from the springs to increase the price structure.
Frankly you'd be best getting the stage 2 kit with the OEM B14 linear 60Nm/mm springs and sourcing topmounts from either AST/KW/Simo. Save a fourtune over their stage 4 for essentially the same product.

Stage 1; B14 kit but with re-valved fronts and increased front stroke.
Stage 2; B14 kit but with re-valved front and rears, increased front stroke.
Stage 3; B14 kit but with re-valved front and rears, increased front stroke, linear front springs (odd though because B14 are linear anyway from Bilstein I heard, 60Nm/mm), adjustable front top mounts
Stage 4; B14 kit but with re-valved front and rears, increased front stroke, linear front & rear springs (as above B14 are from Bilstein linear 60Nm/mm, apparently), adjustable front top mounts.
Stage 5; B14 fronts, re-vlaved, increased stroke, linear springs, adjustable front top mounts. Rear, custom Bilstien rear coilover setup and top mount brackets.
BMR; Front, same as stage 5 but racing spec pistons and valving?? Rear, same as stage 5 but racing pistons and valving????

 

[John Gordon]

There is one thing we could have done/looked into. We could design a kit between us. We could all decide on spring-rates/types and design a kit. Would be easier for the company to build several identical kits, and we would get a better price.

 

[TB Rich]

I would need to work out wheel rates, it'll depend if it was rear coilover or not. Assuming it was a rear coilover as in Stage5/BMR then probabaly something like an f:80Nm/mm & r:80Nm/mm, if it wasn't then be more like an 80/100 - though I'll have to measure up the rear end for the motion ratio etc first.

Btw my car is large front top mounts too.

I would need to know what sort of % this group buy will take off though? As said suspension isn't a priority right now so I'd only 'bite' if it was too good to miss kind of thing. With 3 of us that doesn't seem likely.
Have you looked at contacting Simo? He is linked in over on the Italian RS forum, we had them approach us once for a Supersprint group buy and I saved I think it was 45%!!!

 

[John Gordon]

I think if we could get 5-10 people we would be looking good on the discount side. I if we can get more numbers cross forums I would be very interested to go down this route,