Clio rs engine build (what cams?)

[Davor]

Hello all,

I am a new member from Czehia.
Currently I am building my Clio RS engine, goal is 230hp. The car will be used as a clubsport track day and weekend car.

So far I got: PMS manifold and race exaust, V6 intake, head is ported.
On the way are: wossner high compression pistons and forged rods.

My question now is: what cams?

The cat cams 403 or the piper cams seem to be the easiest solution, but I doubt I would manage to get pass 220hp with them.

I am looking at catcams 404 or 405, according to their website, I would only need to upgrade the valve springs.

Now, I am not looking to pass 8000rpm (7800 would be fine).

I would like to retain the VVT and the stock ECU (ITBs are out of question), but I don't mind adding solid valve lifters.

Would the 405 cams work and make sufficient power with: forged rods and pistons, ported head, upgraded valve springs, v6 airbox and pms exaust and manifold on 7800rpm limiter? Of course I am counting with ECU remapping.

Any advice and experience is welcomed!

Thank you, Davor

 

[turkie172]

How about fitting a Megane turbo engine 250HP+

 

[Davor]

Hi, I am after a clean NA build.

 

[LiamP]

Having looked at a few options for my build, a few things to think about when going 404+:

- CatCams recommend removing VVT due to the duration
- Large overlap will result in a very high idle (if idling is even possible on stock ECU)
- Above 403 and the exhaust lift increases massively so the exhaust port needs to be ported to cope with this (who did yours?)
- Max power will be ~8k so you would certainly want to go solid lifters
- I would recommend balancing the rotating assembly if you aren't already

I came to the conclusion that 220 is the sane limit, above that and you have to spend silly money.

 

[Davor]

Hi Liam,
Thanks for your input, you are pretty much confirming my fears here.

CatCams is a bit confusing as they are making dedicated VVT delete cams 5503505, and VVT cams 5504405 (but they still recomend VVT delete).
Idle will be an issue, I did supporting cooling mods so I hope that 1200rpm idle should be manageable. The stock ECU even if we manage the idle, might still be too slow to deal with the large overlap (I did see that some folks managed it, but you never know).
Rotating assembly will be balanced. Head work was done by MR in Belgrade.
Max power on 8k rpm is what concerns me. To get over 8k I assume I need solid lifters and upgraded valves, to go over 8.5k VVT delete is a must...and now we are talking silly money.
Do you know setup was the R3 maxi using?
Also what setup would you recommend for a target of 7.8k rpm max?
Regards, Davor

 

[Davor]

To add, this is the second time I am doing this engine. The first time I opted for the cheap option, got the the engine head work done, replaced piston rings, all bearings etc. Installed a baffled sump, oil cooler, v6 airbox, got a remap etc... but I was not super happy with the result. So, now I want to do a full build.

Here are some pics of the first build.

 

[VeiRoNv2]

what was the spec of this engine and power figures?

Piper just made new cams with OEM parts that promise 12hp gain so thats quite good,i would agree 220-230 would be a good achievement without spending a lot of money or compromising too much reliability for a fast road setup and some track day use.

Renault Sport Clio 197/200 Fast Road Camshafts - Piper Cams

MK3 RENAULT CLIO 2.0 16v F4R 197 / 200 Renault Sport Clio 197/200 Fast Road Camshafts. Car and bike performance camshafts specialists by Piper Cams

www.pipercams.co.uk

 

[Davor]

I don't know. Before getting it on rollers I measured the compression ratio. It was way to low for a reconditioned engine (around 1:9 on all cylinders). So now I am taking it out again and while I am at it, I figured to do a full engine build.

 

[LiamP]

Hi Liam,
Thanks for your input, you are pretty much confirming my fears here.

CatCams is a bit confusing as they are making dedicated VVT delete cams 5503505, and VVT cams 5504405 (but they still recomend VVT delete).
Idle will be an issue, I did supporting cooling mods so I hope that 1200rpm idle should be manageable. The stock ECU even if we manage the idle, might still be too slow to deal with the large overlap (I did see that some folks managed it, but you never know).
Rotating assembly will be balanced. Head work was done by MR in Belgrade.
Max power on 8k rpm is what concerns me. To get over 8k I assume I need solid lifters and upgraded valves, to go over 8.5k VVT delete is a must...and now we are talking silly money.
Do you know setup was the R3 maxi using?
Also what setup would you recommend for a target of 7.8k rpm max?
Regards, Davor

The fact that you don’t see many doing similar answers your question, it seems those that are chasing power go for the PMS 240 package.

Solid lifters would be required, you could look at reducing your valve train weight with conical springs which will give you some more head room but you are playing with fire.

 

[Twingo200]

You seem very much on the ball with the build but one thing is a worry, your chasing power but haven't mentioned changing the valves, it'd be madness building this sort of engine and not fit forged valves and better springs, the piper cams have been mentioned and they're extremely new and claiming 12hp which will be brilliant............ although something that bothers me on social media where they're pushing them to get the word out there's absolutely no rolling road graphs to support this and only a reply from them to speak to the person that's been mapping them and seeing what they make........ develop cams say what they make and then show supporting evidence........think the issue is that the engines are so hit and miss that two builds with the same bits end up making different power and it's always a gamble claiming what they'll make till they actually get built

 

[Davor]

Thanks! That's true. I will add Supertech valves and catcams valve springs. Just need to decide between catcams 403 for a safe bet, or byte the bullet and go with 404s.
BTW, light weight pulley and flywheel will be added, and the rotating assembly will be ballance.
Also doing the transmission, shorter final drive and a diff.
Hope to get the car ready for spring.

 

[Davor]

The cams have arrived. Went with paper cams, as their specs seem to be almoust identical with catcams 403, but were quite cheaper (they had a black Friday sale) and apparently don't require special timing tools.
The engine head will be equipped with catcams valve springs, wossner forged valves, and I am keeping the hydr. valve lifters and VVT.
I am really interested to see how much power the engine will make with this setup and the wossner 12.7/1 compression pistons. I also got a 64mm trotle body.
BTW, great service from Piper, the cams were delivered 3 days after placing the order, including going through customs clearance

 

[VeiRoNv2]

Following this as I will getting the same cams soon, hopefully what they declare in power gain will be true lol,but yeah Piper are pretty good,I had cams from them on my last car and they were great,also very responsive if you need any help.

 

[Davor]

Will keep you posted. I did not pay too much attention to their advertised power gain, I rarely do (the fact that a manufacturer says that their product will bring xy HP is quite vague unless they share the baseline, e.g if the test engine was producing 185hp before the mod, and most F4R832 engines are on that power level by now, a 13hp gain would mean that the engine is now back on stock power, and then there is the topic of support mods needed).
Anyways, now that all engine and transmission parts are here or on the way, I am starting to think about coilovers.
I am searching for a full coilover set up (front and rear) so the b14 and kw v1, are out of question. I do need to have hight adjustment, but I do not really need damping and recoil adjustment. So a nice out of the box solution would be best, and ideally with front top mounts included and free choice of spring ratings.
Does anybody have the PMS solution, they seem to thick all the boxes, but their price for the bilstein b14 based coilovrrs plus their top mounts seems a bit to steep?
Or is the best setup to go with the x85 coilovers and get the springs according the application (I assume rely and hill climb cars would have had softer springs then circut cars)? Finally, cost does play a role now, as the engine and transmission went over the planned budget .

 

[RSRowe]

I'm a little late to commenting here, but the engine mods you're doing look to be completely wasted with the geometry of the Piper/403 cams.
I feel like you should have gone for 404 as a minimum, the 405 like you discussed, or maybe even the Schrick 282/280's (which claim to work with the OE vvt). It just seems a shame to waste all those nice upgraded parts and the balanced bottom end. I guess you are where you are now, so it's kind of a pointless comment from myself.

I used to run Gaz Golds on my track car, but it made the drive terrible on the roads. It was however, fantastic on track. If you want to retain some road driving pleasure, I think you could stick with KW or B14. I know they cost alot, but the Clubsports i run in my Megane are fantastic on both the road and track.

 

[Davor]

Yap, I was aware that piper's will not utilise the full potential of the bottom end. But I decided not go out fully with the cams, hopping to retain a usable power band through the rpms (the car will be driven on road too). And not to risk needing ITBs or standalone ecu, or additional modifications to the engine head (apart from porting).
Thanks for the comments about GAZ Golds as I was considering them. KW clubsports would stretch the budget, but would be great.

 

[burrellbloke]

If you are intending to use your car on track, or want a stiffer car, then B14s might be too bouncy for you. They are great for fast road driving but not the best on track.

 

[Davor]

Hello all,

This project is taking longer than hoped.
I am done with the mechanical works and we did the first dyno run. Without mapping we have 210hp and a lot of flat spots (note the car is not on a stock mapp as the previous owner already played with the ecu).

Unfortunately, I don't have anybody who can mapp the engine to the mods locally, so I am considering to go the RS tuner box with remote mapping route.

Regards, Davor

 

[Davor]

Advice needed:

Is it possible that the stock ECU cannot handle the combination of high compression R3 pistons and the piper cams?
Here is the power curve after an attempt to map the engine...not great

 

[Tire197]

@Davor

Looks like you have everything for 240hp except proper ECU and mapper.

Here some details for 222hp/245nm:

1. Stock engine (160k km run)
2. Stock manifold + scorpion de-cat catback.
3, Stock filter box+KN filter
4. Higher temperature spark plugs
5. Ecumaster Emu Black
6. E98 from gas station

What I got :
1. very good power curves - with safe map
2. 222 hp/245nh - final map
3, rev limmiter up to 8000rmp + its very smooth
4. more safety for engine (ECUmaster) like overheating, cold revs,ect.
5. some additional extras - for my driving style - pops and bangs for a reason

Here some prove from the process:

220hp/245nm


Just now doing some rebuild, since this all was done with 160k km engine. lets see what comes next with forged pistons and head refreshments.

P.S. Car was heavily used with this tune in competitions