Hi, have read several times that the clio 197/200 cup wing does nothing other than add drag. Would appreciate any info people have on this as my car has the wing, sources, facts etc, so would like to know if its worth it or not.
clio 197/200 cup wing info
- Thread starter Zuban
- Start date
Legend@wheels
Gold Member
AaronJeff
Gold Member
What other purpose would you put on a wing/spoiler on other than for drag/down force?
It will add drag, meaning that it creates down force. If it was aerodynamic, it would not create drag therefore would have no effect on down force, therefore there would be no point.
Other reasons to add one being they look cool as F**K haha!
It will add drag, meaning that it creates down force. If it was aerodynamic, it would not create drag therefore would have no effect on down force, therefore there would be no point.
Other reasons to add one being they look cool as F**K haha!
Legend@wheels
Gold Member
Im pretty much sure it has its own performance benefit too.. Otherwise it wasnt intended for cup ..
Beany
Platinum Member
It's known as the Cup spoiler, but wing/spoiler, it's the same thing. I would say it's purely for cosmetic purposes - I can't see it offering any more performance enhancement than a colour-coded magic tree would
Magic Tree nahhh mate it's all about the Jelly Beans
Beany
Platinum Member
It's just an option it doesn't come standard on cups as mine doesn't have one! They look aesthetically pleasing but to how much benefit they give you is anyone's guess (unless someone's had it in a wind tunnel?)
not being able to find any info Ive done a bit of playing around to learn more about the effect of the wing.
Wings and spoiler do different things, this page gives a good explanation of the difference.
http://oppositelock.kinja.com/wings-spoilers-youre-probably-doing-it-wrong-1665312667
I'm not an aerodynamicist, just someone who's interested in it and enjoys reading about it and playing around with cfd, so anything I put here shouldn't be taken as accurate. However it should be good enough to see whats going on. I've been building a 3d model of the clio for use in cfd, its still quite early on, and I have not done the engine bay or underfloor yet but in order to see what the wing is doing i've sealed the front and the floor is just flat with a simplified diffuser.
This is without the wing at 80mph, the colours represent the velocity of the air, the area's which are blue are where the air has slowed as its turbulent, the airflow over the roof is quite clean, lots of turbulence at the rear.
This is with the wing, air moving across the roof flows through the gap and follows the underside of the wing, airflow is being deflected upwards, also the effect is that the turbulent area behind the car is raised up, this has a positive effect in making the diffuser more effective, meaning airflow under the whole car is better so it has a beneficial effect on the front of the car aswell. As the floor on my model hasn't been modelled yet it cant be quantified, but it makes sense.
I'm calling it a wing, as its shape is that of a proper aerofoil, its placed in clear air, and it interacts with the air directly, but its also having quite an effect on the turbulent air behind the car, so maybe its also a spoiler, maybe its a wingler...
Once I've finished the model I should be able to get some figures for drag and lift/downforce.
Wings and spoiler do different things, this page gives a good explanation of the difference.
http://oppositelock.kinja.com/wings-spoilers-youre-probably-doing-it-wrong-1665312667
I'm not an aerodynamicist, just someone who's interested in it and enjoys reading about it and playing around with cfd, so anything I put here shouldn't be taken as accurate. However it should be good enough to see whats going on. I've been building a 3d model of the clio for use in cfd, its still quite early on, and I have not done the engine bay or underfloor yet but in order to see what the wing is doing i've sealed the front and the floor is just flat with a simplified diffuser.
This is without the wing at 80mph, the colours represent the velocity of the air, the area's which are blue are where the air has slowed as its turbulent, the airflow over the roof is quite clean, lots of turbulence at the rear.
This is with the wing, air moving across the roof flows through the gap and follows the underside of the wing, airflow is being deflected upwards, also the effect is that the turbulent area behind the car is raised up, this has a positive effect in making the diffuser more effective, meaning airflow under the whole car is better so it has a beneficial effect on the front of the car aswell. As the floor on my model hasn't been modelled yet it cant be quantified, but it makes sense.
I'm calling it a wing, as its shape is that of a proper aerofoil, its placed in clear air, and it interacts with the air directly, but its also having quite an effect on the turbulent air behind the car, so maybe its also a spoiler, maybe its a wingler...
Once I've finished the model I should be able to get some figures for drag and lift/downforce.
The only thing that is showing is a better hole for the car behind you, as for making positive effect in making the diffuser more effective you need to lower your car to about 40mm or less for ground effect to start to work correctly.
Wings create downforce
spoilers disrupt the air flow and create low pressure usually with a diffuser combo.
spoilers disrupt the air flow and create low pressure usually with a diffuser combo.
no it shows quite a lot of difference if you are able to interpret it. The speed of the airflow through the diffuser is higher with the wing than without, and as the point of the diffuser is to accelerate airflow as it moves through it, this makes the diffuser more effective. The coefficient of lift over the front axle improves as well as over the rear axle. What is going on behind the diffuser has an effect on how well it works, on a purpose built race car the rear wing is often designed and placed to improve the effectiveness of the diffuser.
Also a diffuser is going to reach maximum downforce around or just under 40mm depending on the angle of the diffuser, but that doesn't mean they don't work at higher ride heights, they just aren't as effective.
There is about 20kg difference in downforce with or without the wing, I wouldn't take that figure as being correct as I've a ton more work to do to the model and some more refining to the cfd setup to do, but there is a clear difference.
The measure of the down force would also come into play. At which speeds would you conduct testing? Certain benefits would be visible at a given speed, I think to reap its potential, the wing would need to be exposed to speeds over 135km/p. I look forward to some further renders.
will be testing at a spectrum of speeds, and trying out different positions for the wing as it might be possible to mount it slightly differently for different benefits. The biggest task I have currently though is to keep working on the model, I bought a model to save myself having to build it from scratch, but it wasn't made with cfd in mind, so I have been spending time measuring and adjusting, although I have the internal engine bay to build from scratch, as well as the underfloor in order to get a better representation. It is faster to do it this way but still a lot of work, so will take some time. I've been 3d modelling for years so that side is straightforward, I am very early on in learning about cfd though but it is a huge and very interesting topic!.
Just an update as I've been continuing with this, managed to do a lot of rebuilding of the model I bought, found it was almost completely wrong, so now have a much better model, which more accurately matches the real car, my neighbours must wonder what i'm up to constantly measuring random parts of the car lol. I have also managed to build a basic engine bay and underfloor which has shown some interesting results. Their seems little doubt the diffuser works, but how well it works seems to depend on many factors, and the wing/spoiler has a very large impact on it.
The following pics show the streamlines flowing through the same point, everything apart from the wing being present or not is identical, the point is the centre of the diffuser, and the path the airflow takes to get there. First pic is heavily influenced by the turbulent flow from exhaust tunnel, the outer two sections of the diffuser are functioning though and reducing lift. Airflow over the top of the car enters the turbulent section at the rear and interacts with the air exiting the diffuser.
Second pic with wing shows how large an effect the wing is having, the effect on the area behind the diffuser allows it to begin to work despite the turbulent flow of the exhaust tunnel. The most startling thing Is how big the difference in behaviour the airflow at the rear is with and without the wing. I will not quote any figures as I still have so much work to do that could affect any output but there is a large difference in lift reduction and the drag difference is not much at all. This is where the wing is acting very much as a spoiler, stopping the air flowing over the top of the car entering the turbulent section at the rear, and interacting with the air exiting the diffuser as it is in the picture above.
The following pics show the streamlines flowing through the same point, everything apart from the wing being present or not is identical, the point is the centre of the diffuser, and the path the airflow takes to get there. First pic is heavily influenced by the turbulent flow from exhaust tunnel, the outer two sections of the diffuser are functioning though and reducing lift. Airflow over the top of the car enters the turbulent section at the rear and interacts with the air exiting the diffuser.
Second pic with wing shows how large an effect the wing is having, the effect on the area behind the diffuser allows it to begin to work despite the turbulent flow of the exhaust tunnel. The most startling thing Is how big the difference in behaviour the airflow at the rear is with and without the wing. I will not quote any figures as I still have so much work to do that could affect any output but there is a large difference in lift reduction and the drag difference is not much at all. This is where the wing is acting very much as a spoiler, stopping the air flowing over the top of the car entering the turbulent section at the rear, and interacting with the air exiting the diffuser as it is in the picture above.
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Zuban,
Thanks for your incredible work with CFD. I have a Clio 200 and have been looking for some solid factual evidence regarding the aerodynamics of the car. Your CFD model has convinced me to save up for a rear wing as it clearly has a positive aero effect.
I'd be very interested to see any CFD results of the front of the car if it's a 200 that you've modelled. I am interested to know if the front 'F1 blade' has any positive effect or if it's just cosmetic? I am considering an additional front splitter, partly for aerodynamic gain but also 'cause I think they look really cool, so I'd be interested if there was any aero gain to be had from doing this?
Thanks again for your efforts...
Thanks for your incredible work with CFD. I have a Clio 200 and have been looking for some solid factual evidence regarding the aerodynamics of the car. Your CFD model has convinced me to save up for a rear wing as it clearly has a positive aero effect.
I'd be very interested to see any CFD results of the front of the car if it's a 200 that you've modelled. I am interested to know if the front 'F1 blade' has any positive effect or if it's just cosmetic? I am considering an additional front splitter, partly for aerodynamic gain but also 'cause I think they look really cool, so I'd be interested if there was any aero gain to be had from doing this?
Thanks again for your efforts...
HI, yeah its a 200 I've modelled. I haven't touched this for pretty much the last year, work and the other half wanting the garden totally redesigned has kept me busy and I haven't even driven my clio since January..... Thankfully that will change in the next few days. Hopefully get a bit more work done on it now. I have some more theories about the diffuser that i'd like to test, particularly about the exhaust placement.
The f1 blade i'm not really sure about, its not an area I've studied yet, i'd guess that whatever effect it might have is tiny. What kind of splitter are you looking at, there will definitely be a benefit to it. I've been mostly focused on the diffuser up till now but the front should get some attention soon.
The f1 blade i'm not really sure about, its not an area I've studied yet, i'd guess that whatever effect it might have is tiny. What kind of splitter are you looking at, there will definitely be a benefit to it. I've been mostly focused on the diffuser up till now but the front should get some attention soon.
It's a Triple R Composites, Focus Zetec-S spoiler that I've gone for. It's on order and should be with me in the next couple of weeks. I'll put a photo on here when it's on the car.
I still haven't bitten the bullet and ordered a spoiler/wing for the back, although I have now been given funding approval by the wife so it's just a case of deciding between a cup spoiler or the more subtle sprint spoiler? From your CFD model I would suggest that they would both have a similar effect, so the more subtle sprint spoiler may be my preference.
I still haven't bitten the bullet and ordered a spoiler/wing for the back, although I have now been given funding approval by the wife so it's just a case of deciding between a cup spoiler or the more subtle sprint spoiler? From your CFD model I would suggest that they would both have a similar effect, so the more subtle sprint spoiler may be my preference.
