197 R27 rod caps failure (30k miles) - confirmed

[rSilva]

Some time ago I changed the oil and went for a weekend in the mountains.
Had good fun driving until a knock started on the top end (it was noticeable that it came from the top).
A new dephaser pulley was ordered...

Noe, the new dephaser pulley is installed and the top end tick seems to be gone.
Trouble is that I'm also getting a tick from the bottom end when it warms up. Next step will be to check the oil and and remove the pan to check the rod big ends for play.

Is it common for the oil pump to give? That could make both the pulley and the caps to die, right?

The engine only has 50k km (30k miles), so I'm puzzled.
Only thing I changed was the oil, and used the MOTUL 8100 X-Cess 5W-40 that complies to the Renault standards. Can it be the cause?

 

[chris1888-197]

Any vids of the bottom end knocking mate ?

 

[rSilva]

Unfortunately not! It was the last thing I thought of.
I'm not planning on starting it again before having checked the bottom end. But I wil try to make a vid once the oup pan is out.

When looking at a service manual that I found on the internets I can find almost every section for the F4R engine but some seem to be missing, like the lower cover removal (oil sump/pan) or the conrond bearing shell removal.
Does anyone have the guide on that?

Regarding the bearing and (possible) oil pump failure, I've seen some posts over here about that, but never found a lot of details.
How often is the oil pump the one to blame? And how to check/test it to make sure it's ok?

 

[Chrisgti6]

Who fitted the new dephaser? Correct and genuine timing tools used?

 

[rSilva]

I fitted it myself.

Everything aligns (cams) and locks (crank) correctly, according to workshop guide and using the right tools (from ebay, but still specific for the F4R engine).
When hand spinning the engine without spark plugs everything goes smoothly.

The noise only started to be noticeable when the engine started warming (oil become thinner) and it was still at idle, so it should not be the case of a faulty dephaser.
Also, before it was noticeable that the noise came from the top of the engine an now it seems to be coming from the bottom.

 

[TB Rich]

How long was it drained from oil? I had a very scary knock on mine because my lifters took ages to pump up, we left it with no oil for a while and changed oil types when going from running in semi to a proper grade fully synth. Sounded like the bottom end too, way louder than I thought lifters could be.
Just took some time and having the guts to rev it a bit to get the oil circulating around and into the lifters properly.

 

[rSilva]

I was stopped for about 2 months, but the lifters were never removed. The followers were all checked, though.
On startup it was not knocking, only when it started warming, so that doesn't really fit into empty lifters, right?

I'd rather look into the rods first than having a try at filling the lifters.


Regarding the workshop guides and oil pump, anyone has anything to add?

 

[TB Rich]

http://www.2shared.com/document/T7odSL6A/CLIO_197__200_SERVICE_MANUAL.html

 

[rSilva]

Thank you!

That is the same I have it seems. Only has info on conrod bearing shell removal for the K9K engine (pages 144 to 151).

 

[TB Rich]

Just uploaded the the R3 Maxi Evo engine assembly manual for you to my site.

http://www.cliorsr.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Clio-R3-Maxi-EVO-_Engine-assembly-manual_-_xcd.pdf

Let me know when you've downloaded it as I don't want my bandwidth being raped by a million 6mb downloads!!!

 

[rSilva]

Done!

Thanks a lot :clap:

 

[Foxspeed]

f4r not known for oil pump faults or bottom ends failures as such apart from the odd con rod failure - we don't see any bottom ends at work due to pump failure...

taking it apart isn't a big/complicated job ie big end caps off and shell bearings out

 

[rSilva]

While checking the forum I could not find many reports of bottom end failures, so I wasn't getting too worried with that.

Regarding the shells, do they have their size printed in the back, so that I can order the right size, or should I get a micrometer to measure the crank side and go from there?

 

[Foxspeed]

if the crank is ok and not scored then shells will be available in standard sizes and easily available from suppliers

standard size shells don't usually have any sizes on them only undersize have size markings

 

[rSilva]

Well... yesterday I got my hands dirty... And guess what, I found gold...

Lots of gold...

And you may ask why? I think it's Renault's fault, for 2 reasons:
1 - The oil pump screen is too small
2 - There was excess sealant while assembling the end crank bearings, that eventually got loose and cover the majority of the tiny screen

Cylinder nº3 is the only that got screwed, but in a good fashion, since the shell moved in the rod... they are well scored and distorted and the crank face is bust

 

[rSilva]

(continuing, due to 5 image limit)

Nº2 was also disassembled to check, and it's not bad, despite also showing some signs of poor lubrication due to low oil pressure

Can someone tell me, from the reference, if they are STD side?

Also made a quick video, as promised
[video]https://youtu.be/9z2gUcvKEV8[/video]

So now I will be looking for either a crankshaft regrind or a new/used one. Any thoughts on the best route?

I also need a new connecting rod, set of bolts, all the crank bearings, head gasket, oil pump (not sure yet) and what not.


Is there anyone breaking an engine that has rods and crank to sell?

I'm also very seriously thinking on modding the oil pump pickup to have a larger opening, just in case.

EDIT:
As mentioned, the oil pump opening is too narrow for such a large piece of crap that got loose

 

[Foxspeed]

standard Renault bearings as no undersize markings

as for pump inlet too small - not really - its not designed to be blocked by what looks like thrust washer pieces

two choices there - strip down and crank regrind and new con-rod & shells or a replacement engine...

either way its a lot of $$$$$

 

[chorlica]

96000km[emoji35]

 

[TB Rich]

Is there anyone breaking an engine that has rods and crank to sell?

[MENTION=53528]rSilva[/MENTION] yep I've got a set of 200 rods for sale. http://www.clio197.net/forum/showthread.php?50014-200-Rods

 

[rSilva]

... - its not designed to be blocked by what looks like thrust washer pieces
...

It's sealant from the crank end bearings