LY200 - too loud or blow up again, taking bets!

[Raptor6767]

That's almost 2 average wages here in Croatia.

 

[TB Rich]

Oh, when I say 'good' price, it's relative - meaning a good price for an installed standalone ECU. It is of course still a bloody lot of money to spend!!


Picked the car up with the new plugs, the old plugs all have white tips and are looking like they've run too hot which confirms my suspicions. Nothing too bad and no signs of det, but glad to have slapped an 8 grade in there now

 

[Raptor6767]

That means your car might be (was) runing lean or the ignition timing is not ideal.

 

[TB Rich]

It's mostly just down to a high compression ratio generating more heat and the plugs were not changed for a colder grade - they should have been and this is just symptomatic of that.

However on the subject of ign timing (and why I say mostly above), I've been doing some reading around the relationship between compression and camshaft selection. I would say for the static CR I run (12.5:1) the 403's are too mild, specifically they do not have enough overlap. Overlap is key to making a high performance engine because the effect of scavenging at high rpm, the negative side to this is reversion at low rpm but this is (one reason anyway) why you increase CR to best counter this as well as you can. Ultimately there is a relationship between overlap and compression and what my engine has is disproportionately more compression than overlap. These mild cams aren't bleeding enough cylinder pressure and it is keeping the engine close to the knock threshold - possibly as evidenced by the hot looking plugs. Not an issue though because the car is not suffering det or pre-ignition, and the swap to cold plugs is perfect and required. - Also no need to change the tune it'll just work as required.

Solution to the compression 'issue' though.....bigger cams :evil: 404's, 405's or R3 Maxi are my choice for early next year. Most likely 404's.

A bit more investigating on the 403's, I don't believe they actually require forged pistons (i.e additional valve clearance), this for a 3 reasons.
1, they actually have less total lift than 402's.
2, between 403's -> 404's is a large 0.75mm total lift difference on the exhaust cam, this is by far the single biggest jump between 2 profiles in the Cat Cams range! 404->405 (0.15mm difference), 405->406 (0.2mm difference).
3, also with 403's you don't require stiffer valve springs

With the points above I honestly believe 403's are designed to maximise the standard engines valve train and piston clearance only, thus not really suited to my build. (any excuse for bigger cams! )

 

[Yiannis197]

Thanks for sharing this info Rich. This thread is pure quality.

So you are saying that 403s can be fitted on a stock engine? How come you reckon noone has fitted this profile cams them?

 

[TB Rich]

I 'think' so*, the only talk of 403's I found prior to buying them were from Ben and he said they needed pistons........but his revelation (I think in this thread) was that his cams were '2' up from the normal. Well normal being 402's, and 2 up therefore being 404's, not 403's!! Also I've seen it stated before his engine was a road version of the TDF race lump used in Nick Jones X85, that 100% ran 404's. Add in the lift and springs info I pointed out, and I think yes it makes sense 403's are for stock OEM parts.

*Caveat is you mash your valves your own fault

Would be interesting to know how 403's would run with normal compression and a normal exhaust manifold, as certianly my ECU is a bit lost at times with part throttle due to not having a stable MAP signal at low rpm and low throttle. However with less CR and less of a scavenging boost from the R3 mani, the standard ECU maybe fine.
This is why I am doing the standalone - to be able to run TPS based mapping and have a smooth and consistent engine from idle to WOT and at all rpm's. After I could actually bash 404's in without doing the ITB's, but the risk then is the idle will need raising too high, Simo says his 230 R3 cams idle around 1400rpm and 404's I suspect are similar in profile.

Used the car this morning at what felt like bloody freezing! No issues with the new plug grade, felt a bit peppier if anything once warmed through

 

[Tutuur]

The most important term was that everything remains STOCK.
I don't want a "Christmas tree" dashboard.

VEMS will be for the fuel map and ignition timing, and stock ECU for the rest.

i hope your guy will be able to get it to work, i spoke with efi-parts who is basically a genius regarding fitting standalone ecu's to cars, he told me he had alot of problems getting it to work normally alongside the standard ecu. That's because the standard ecu will 'see' it's not controlling the injectors and ignition. It will then restrict throttle body opening....

ofcourse i wish you the best of luck and it would be great if you manage to get everything working as you want! Still a fan of standalone myself, also because RStuning is on the other side of the sea for me.

 

[Raptor6767]

i hope your guy will be able to get it to work, i spoke with efi-parts who is basically a genius regarding fitting standalone ecu's to cars, he told me he had alot of problems getting it to work normally alongside the standard ecu. That's because the standard ecu will 'see' it's not controlling the injectors and ignition. It will then restrict throttle body opening....

ofcourse i wish you the best of luck and it would be great if you manage to get everything working as you want! Still a fan of standalone myself, also because RStuning is on the other side of the sea for me.

With my luck - who knows.

Only time will tell.

 

[Tutuur]

Keep ius updated in your thread mate! Meanwhile i'm following this one!

 

[TB Rich]

well it's midnight and Friday night, and............ just bought a spare low mileage Clio 200 engine!! I only want the head so will have a lot of bits to sell soon but looks like I will be doing head work next year after all, big valves too :evil: Also means my head with standard size Supertech valves will be for sale eventually.

 

[Raptor6767]

well it's midnight and Friday night, and............ just bought a spare low mileage Clio 200 engine!! I only want the head so will have a lot of bits to sell soon but looks like I will be doing head work next year after all, big valves too :evil: Also means my head with standard size Supertech valves will be for sale eventually.

What cams do you have in the current engine? If they are 402's are you willing to sell them? A friend of mine needs them.

 

[Yiannis197]

He's got 403s on.

Rich, you my friend are crazy! Haha

 

[TB Rich]

Correct, 403's in there. I'll try to sell the head with Supertech valves and 403's all built as one as I think it should be a more attractive option that way. But won't be for a while yet, probably 6 months I think. It's just that this opp came around to get a 200 head and once all the bits are sold it won't have cost chuff all to get.

Yes slightly nuts I guess, I just love the car right now! Looks great, going well and sounding insane, very difficult to replace with something so might as well enjoy it!

 

[litchy]

Correct, 403's in there. I'll try to sell the head with Supertech valves and 403's all built as one as I think it should be a more attractive option that way. But won't be for a while yet, probably 6 months I think. It's just that this opp came around to get a 200 head and once all the bits are sold it won't have cost chuff all to get.

Yes slightly nuts I guess, I just love the car right now! Looks great, going well and sounding insane, very difficult to replace with something so might as well enjoy it!

Most interesting project for some time on here. I echoe your view though that it's difficult to replace these cars once some of their failings are addressed, which for me was more torque.

 

[TB Rich]

Most interesting project for some time on here. I echoe your view though that it's difficult to replace these cars once some of their failings are addressed, which for me was more torque.

Yeah I had a choice a while back to maybe go for an E92 rather than undertake the rebuild, but I was concerned by M running costs. Turns out the mods have far exceeded the running costs really but equally a bat **** Clio or stock M3? Well I'm always a fan of the underdog(!) so I don't think I'd swap it now given how far it's come on and the short term plans for it.

5am start tomorrow though to get the car to SC Wouldn't mind not having to do these sort of trips anymore!!

 

[TB Rich]

1 week in and not picking the car up, it won't as yet even start on the ECU. So leaving it with them for another week.
Good job I didn't just take a punt and buy the Meg one and hope it to have simply worked!! At least I'm not having to absorb the costs, other than having to have a hire car for another 7 days/~£200.

Sure they'll get there in the end but I am not fully filled with any confidence tbh. If I can't get an integrated standalone working on the car I'm not sure where to go with it all really. I'm not happy with the transient throttle using these cams and compression etc whilst on the OEM MAP based ECU..... so this 26k mile 200 engine I've just bought....... might have to get put in and sell everything off!!!! Hopefully won't come to that though.

 

[litchy]

1 week in and not picking the car up, it won't as yet even start on the ECU. So leaving it with them for another week.
Good job I didn't just take a punt and buy the Meg one and hope it to have simply worked!! At least I'm not having to absorb the costs, other than having to have a hire car for another 7 days/~£200.

Sure they'll get there in the end but I am not fully filled with any confidence tbh. If I can't get an integrated standalone working on the car I'm not sure where to go with it all really. I'm not happy with the transient throttle using these cams and compression etc whilst on the OEM MAP based ECU..... so this 26k mile 200 engine I've just bought....... might have to get put in and sell everything off!!!! Hopefully won't come to that though.

That would be a real shame.....but can understand it looks like a bit of a glass ceiling project. A NA 250 Clio would be crazy, but just think it's the wrong engine to start with. Great NA engines are used for many other applications beyond the car it was suppose to be in. When I looked at it, I reckon I'd be into 10k into the engine alone to get over 240bhp which is crazy when it only cost me 1k to get to 216bhp. On reflection, if I started with a 200 engine and ditched the V6 air box, would have been close to 220bhp....

 

[JamesS]

1 week in and not picking the car up, it won't as yet even start on the ECU. So leaving it with them for another week.
Good job I didn't just take a punt and buy the Meg one and hope it to have simply worked!! At least I'm not having to absorb the costs, other than having to have a hire car for another 7 days/~£200.

Is your car keyless? I'm guessing it is if SC are having trouble getting it to start.

The CAN behaviour of the Clio is the same as on the Megane. If they've replicated the behaviour of the stock Megane ECU then it should be a trivial job for them to get the Clio up and running unless they haven't done keyless before.

 

[TB Rich]

Yes it's keyless, not sure how that would make a difference mind? The Megane doesn't have VVT, and the guy I spoke to (who wasn't the one directly working on it) I believe said it was the VVT causing a problem. I think it's more to do with the fact they haven't got full control of the inputs rather than it wont physically crank. They quite rightly don't want to crank it without having VVT control. He also mentioned something about injection and my interpretation was Renault don't use a traditional sequential setup, still uses wasted spark or something..... I'll find out more and specifics when I speak tomorrow.

Yes Litchy the ECU is indeed the ceiling so it would be massive shame if it can't be installed. I'll be in limbo with the car then, I really don't want to have a non OEM dash and many features not working, which rules out traditional stuff like a DTA. But I do need an ECU to make it run smoothly on TPS/Alpha-N.... if I can't get either of those I'm left with no choice but to either down spec the car by putting 402's in (never gonna happen!), or, put the stock 200 engine in I potentially by very good fortune have just bought!! and frankly cut my loses, sell it all and buy an E92.

 

[Yiannis197]

I really don't want to see this project dying...any updates Rich?