///M
Gold Member
Coilovers and good discounts
- Thread starter kevlar
- Start date
peter
POTM Winner - February 2017
Thanks guys, do Bilstein do any other applications for the Clio? Their website is terrible
not bilstein, but these guys do (based on bilstein B14's) ...
http://www.madenoracing.com/performance/
@John Gordon paid them a visit some time ago ...
http://www.clio197.net/threads/renaultsport-r27-0465.50400/#post-563509
you could put a koni sportkit on the clio. http://www.koni.uk.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=253&Itemid=284 no coilovers but adjustable dampers and H&R springs.
@steve11 ... had them on his clio. tracked the car plenty.
all depends how much cash you're willing to sacrifice.
Thanks Peter, would be interested to know what Madeno did with the B14's for @John Gordon 197, can you share John? Was it just custom springs for the front? Which top mounts have you paired with them?
TB Rich
Paid Member
Yiannis have you driven B14's and would you say they are like turning the stock car up to 11?
I've always felt the Cup chassis (on things like a road tyre up to an AD08R) has been easily good enough whilst maintaining a decent compromise between road and track.
Tbh I'd say pretty much suspension was going to be the last thing IMO to change on a fast road/track used Clio with Cup Chassis, plenty more issues to sort on the car before that point. However now my springs snapped this has brought forward that schedule.
I am however thinking AST are a bit overkill and too track orientated perhaps? If B14's would keep a similar compromise as the standard Cup chassis, but perhaps just be a bit stiffer to cut down the roll etc, then combined with some top mounts to dial the geo in, it should be the perfect compromise?
It'd still be a good setup for AD08R and perhaps the new AR-1?? Plus B14's are a complete bargain which is hard to ignore!
On my way home mate. I'll PM you with something that may change your mind when I get back. VERY interesting mate!
I have heard about a new Bilstein option from a UK tuner (deals with the Cup Racers), I've no details on spring rates, if it's combined bump or rebound (or just rebound)?, what/if top mounts? etc, any details you can share?
I know the estimated price though, and bang on. Issue is I don't know where it'll sit in the ever elusive road & track compromise?!
Also, anyone emailed Madeno to see how much their in-house Ohlins Road & Track kit is?!
peter
POTM Winner - February 2017
exactly what i'd like to know too.
i don't have the budget for a KW clubsport, an AST or a highly modified madeno bilstein kit, but would be interested in a B14/koni sportkit, if someone could tell me it wouldn't ruin how the clio (with stock cup suspension) moves on track and road.
turning the stock car up to 11 on road and track ... and have a much better looking stance. win-win in my book.
TB Rich
Paid Member
That's no good! I'm at Autosport next week and both AST and Intrax are there to tempt me!
Yiannis197
Paid Member
Rich I'm doing Autosport on Sunday, when are you going mate?
The kit to buy is coming out in a week's time at an excellent price. In fact it's going to be released in Autosport so I'm sure you guys will just go for it.
ASTs as they come ARE overkill for the road for sure however if you spec digressive pistons, reasonable rates (50/50) and damping to suit then you'd got it exactly where you want. However, you start playing at bespoke territories which means more money etc.
The present B14 kit definitely makes the car better. It's slightly stiffer but the damper controls the spring much better than the OEM one, basically you don't have the rear bouncing around like there is no tomorrow. An upgrade of the existing B14 recipe can only be win
The kit to buy is coming out in a week's time at an excellent price. In fact it's going to be released in Autosport so I'm sure you guys will just go for it.
ASTs as they come ARE overkill for the road for sure however if you spec digressive pistons, reasonable rates (50/50) and damping to suit then you'd got it exactly where you want. However, you start playing at bespoke territories which means more money etc.
The present B14 kit definitely makes the car better. It's slightly stiffer but the damper controls the spring much better than the OEM one, basically you don't have the rear bouncing around like there is no tomorrow. An upgrade of the existing B14 recipe can only be win
TB Rich
Paid Member
Going on Sat mate, must be at least 15 years since I last went! No action arenas etc back then and it was much cheaper to get in. The price is f'ing shocking actually, £60 quid for me and my son! Personally I'm not bothered by the action crap either, wish there was a cut price ticket option.
Who's stand is it being released on? Can't see anything obvious on the exhibitors list?
Who's stand is it being released on? Can't see anything obvious on the exhibitors list?
What about a spec'd gaz coilover kit ? . Surely they can valve the shocks and supply springs to meet the needs of each application ?
Look like there gold shocks are all alloy so light as well.
Look like there gold shocks are all alloy so light as well.
TB Rich
Paid Member
I'm pretty sure I'm going to 'slum' it with normal B14's and some Compbrake top mounts.
The new kit is essentially a Pss9, so literally take a B14 kit and whack the adjustable 1-way spindles in them.
This gives me 2 concerns:
1) it uses the same springs as the B14 kit, so winding up the damping is basically a cludge tbh.
2) Bilstein Pss9 spindles are renowned to be fairly poor, I've seen lots of dyno's where basically the clicks make bugger all difference to the low speed damping that really effects handling, and rather they just effect high speed and so give you a shit ride for nothing.
I actually had a long convo with Madeno ages ago about suspension, and un-prompted Leo was telling me about the difficulties they had in properly valving the adjustable Bilstein spindles.
They 'could' be fine, but I don't have confidence in the spindles as they come from Bilstein so I would absolutely want shock dynos of the settings, but when you're talking shock dynos and track focussed linear springs........your into why Madeno charge £2.5k basically.
I spoke to AST too, they said they wouldn't use digressive valving on a car that saw the road :\ which seems strange to me given Yiannis had digressive valving on his! The whole point of it is to give a blow off in the damping to stop the high speed (ride quality etc) from being too stiff.
In a nut shell they said that road valved dampers wouldn't need it because the low speed would be low to the point even on a linear plot it still wouldn't be terrible at high, which is a point I can see, BUT, digressive valving can get you the stiffer low speed without the compromise to high! Ohlins etc use it (it's the basis of the DFV in the road and track kits), and is why they have such a great reputation for riding 'soft' but still having great control. - So I'll take a skip on AST after the convo I had. Only get 1 chance to make a first impression and all that!
And so after process of elimination means in my mind...B14's or something from Madeno with plots etc if you're serious about track. The new pss9 style kit is twice the price and with the compromises I don't see the value in it I'm afraid.
The new kit is essentially a Pss9, so literally take a B14 kit and whack the adjustable 1-way spindles in them.
This gives me 2 concerns:
1) it uses the same springs as the B14 kit, so winding up the damping is basically a cludge tbh.
2) Bilstein Pss9 spindles are renowned to be fairly poor, I've seen lots of dyno's where basically the clicks make bugger all difference to the low speed damping that really effects handling, and rather they just effect high speed and so give you a shit ride for nothing.
I actually had a long convo with Madeno ages ago about suspension, and un-prompted Leo was telling me about the difficulties they had in properly valving the adjustable Bilstein spindles.
They 'could' be fine, but I don't have confidence in the spindles as they come from Bilstein so I would absolutely want shock dynos of the settings, but when you're talking shock dynos and track focussed linear springs........your into why Madeno charge £2.5k basically.
I spoke to AST too, they said they wouldn't use digressive valving on a car that saw the road :\ which seems strange to me given Yiannis had digressive valving on his! The whole point of it is to give a blow off in the damping to stop the high speed (ride quality etc) from being too stiff.
In a nut shell they said that road valved dampers wouldn't need it because the low speed would be low to the point even on a linear plot it still wouldn't be terrible at high, which is a point I can see, BUT, digressive valving can get you the stiffer low speed without the compromise to high! Ohlins etc use it (it's the basis of the DFV in the road and track kits), and is why they have such a great reputation for riding 'soft' but still having great control. - So I'll take a skip on AST after the convo I had. Only get 1 chance to make a first impression and all that!
And so after process of elimination means in my mind...B14's or something from Madeno with plots etc if you're serious about track. The new pss9 style kit is twice the price and with the compromises I don't see the value in it I'm afraid.
Yiannis197
Paid Member
Sorry @TB Rich I just saw this mate. I went today so we wouldn't have met anyway
I didn't have time to go to the Bilstein stand neither to see Sean@Jade as he wasn't there. The action arena show was pants and I could do without, basically I lost 2 hours for no reason (1 hour for the show plus getting there and leaving which took ages).
Interesting to hear what you say about the bilstein spindles, I knew that pss9 was/is pants but I was expecting something better for a 2017 kit? I didn't have any info about this apart from the fact that they would take the successful b14 recipe but making it one way retaining current spring rates but altering valving to add some extra adjustability . It's a monotube shock so the spring rate range is wider anyway. All that for under a grand would definitely be something to consider however with this info coming up I'm not so sure.
Anyway, whom did you speak to AST? Curtis (bold guy?) I do understand what he is on about, to add to this he also mentioned on one of our discussions that not all cars would see benefits from the digressive pistons (ie 911s) and that is because the tricky way the rear suspension works.
I haven't driven a car with a road AST kit on and therefore I'm totally unfamiliar with their road setup so I can not comment. My kit however is a track orientated one with valving to match and that being stiff it totally benefits from loss of damping on high speeds. Maybe Curtis didn't realise the outcome you wish to achieve or the exact application? Remember, my car atm with digressive pistons is still a stiff setup but nowhere near as the initial Sportline 5100 80/110 N/mm one.
I didn't have time to go to the Bilstein stand neither to see Sean@Jade as he wasn't there. The action arena show was pants and I could do without, basically I lost 2 hours for no reason (1 hour for the show plus getting there and leaving which took ages).
Interesting to hear what you say about the bilstein spindles, I knew that pss9 was/is pants but I was expecting something better for a 2017 kit? I didn't have any info about this apart from the fact that they would take the successful b14 recipe but making it one way retaining current spring rates but altering valving to add some extra adjustability . It's a monotube shock so the spring rate range is wider anyway. All that for under a grand would definitely be something to consider however with this info coming up I'm not so sure.
Anyway, whom did you speak to AST? Curtis (bold guy?) I do understand what he is on about, to add to this he also mentioned on one of our discussions that not all cars would see benefits from the digressive pistons (ie 911s) and that is because the tricky way the rear suspension works.
I haven't driven a car with a road AST kit on and therefore I'm totally unfamiliar with their road setup so I can not comment. My kit however is a track orientated one with valving to match and that being stiff it totally benefits from loss of damping on high speeds. Maybe Curtis didn't realise the outcome you wish to achieve or the exact application? Remember, my car atm with digressive pistons is still a stiff setup but nowhere near as the initial Sportline 5100 80/110 N/mm one.
I've heard the problems with Bilstein spindles but I'm pretty sure this is something that Bilstein rectified quite quickly after having the first few complaints. With that in mind I wouldn't "write it off" as an option. I'd like to see a proper write up on this new coilover setup, who will be selling the kit etc and then a review of the setup.
I had the PSS10 on my M3 and they were fantastic, so would expect a PSS9 kit on the Clio to be equally as good.
I had the PSS10 on my M3 and they were fantastic, so would expect a PSS9 kit on the Clio to be equally as good.
TB Rich
Paid Member
@Yiannis, yeah action show wasn't the best but was better than I thought it was going to be (I had low expectations mind!). We sat quite near one of the ends and the RS200 did an almighty bang though - that meant for me it was worthwhile
But, yeah was a lot of time and I also didn't get to a lot of stands because of it. I wanted to leave at ~4pm too as it's around 2 1/2 hours home.
At AST I spoke to Stephan I think it was.
As a correction to above, I assume the spindles must actually be PSS10 style - I was told 10 clicks, fail on my part! I will spend some time looking into PSS9 vs PSS10 internals etc.
No kit price I was told was £1250, def not under a grand and basically twice the price as B14's are £650 at Kam. So given springs are the same, all the money is going on having knobs - unfortunately for most people this instantly means better and faster! Hopefully I can get some damper dyno's which would help immensely, although I still think stiffer linear springs should be included to make it more track focussed.
But, yeah was a lot of time and I also didn't get to a lot of stands because of it. I wanted to leave at ~4pm too as it's around 2 1/2 hours home.
At AST I spoke to Stephan I think it was.
As a correction to above, I assume the spindles must actually be PSS10 style - I was told 10 clicks, fail on my part! I will spend some time looking into PSS9 vs PSS10 internals etc.
No kit price I was told was £1250, def not under a grand and basically twice the price as B14's are £650 at Kam. So given springs are the same, all the money is going on having knobs - unfortunately for most people this instantly means better and faster! Hopefully I can get some damper dyno's which would help immensely, although I still think stiffer linear springs should be included to make it more track focussed.
Yiannis197
Paid Member
£1250 is a bit of a price hike in comparison to the normal B14s I have to say. I was told they'd be around £1k which is not bad at all given the competition, still is I presume but not when the lesser kit is so cheap.
I do get what you say about the "extra knob = better and faster" approach and I'm afraid lots of people fall for that without knowing what they are actually buying. I've always seen the adjustable dampers a mean to set a car's behaviour according to your driving style and not necessarily making it quicker, in fact sometimes you make it slower! (especially when you set it to be as oversteery as possible lol)
I do get what you say about the "extra knob = better and faster" approach and I'm afraid lots of people fall for that without knowing what they are actually buying. I've always seen the adjustable dampers a mean to set a car's behaviour according to your driving style and not necessarily making it quicker, in fact sometimes you make it slower! (especially when you set it to be as oversteery as possible
lol)
TB Rich
Paid Member
Not sure when available, presume now?
My issue to elaborate a bit more is that the dampers are valved to stock b14 settings at their softest setting, so you are basically winding the damping up to provide excessive rebound (aka fake spring), which is just a bit of a cludge.
Now if it had stiffer springs (linear imo) with an 'optimal' valving at mid point, you can still generate f/r balance changes but with much less deviation from optimal damping.
E.g I was told dry track these would be at 3-5 clicks front and max 10 on rear.
So with stiffer springs and optimal mid point valving, let's say you need to change from this for more oversteer, you could let's say run it at 4/7 front/rear. You have achieved a balance shift as required but with much less deviation and no bullshit wind the crap out the rebound scenario.
I'd pay perhaps even more than the price for this, call it 1500. But as it stands I'd rather pay 650 for stock B14 frankly.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
My issue to elaborate a bit more is that the dampers are valved to stock b14 settings at their softest setting, so you are basically winding the damping up to provide excessive rebound (aka fake spring), which is just a bit of a cludge.
Now if it had stiffer springs (linear imo) with an 'optimal' valving at mid point, you can still generate f/r balance changes but with much less deviation from optimal damping.
E.g I was told dry track these would be at 3-5 clicks front and max 10 on rear.
So with stiffer springs and optimal mid point valving, let's say you need to change from this for more oversteer, you could let's say run it at 4/7 front/rear. You have achieved a balance shift as required but with much less deviation and no bullshit wind the crap out the rebound scenario.
I'd pay perhaps even more than the price for this, call it 1500. But as it stands I'd rather pay 650 for stock B14 frankly.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
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